Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Emma Lemma


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Whether a redirect is needed can be discussed separately.  Sandstein  08:54, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Emma Lemma

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

The mention in Halmos' book is "... I read Pontryagin's Topological Groups. The English translation by Mrs. Lehmer (usually referred to as Emma Lemma)".

First, I think it's a mistake to believe that "Emma Lemma" refers to the translation rather than an obvious play-on-words of her name. Second, this is insufficient to make this a notable nickname. The other reference is to the book itself, which I strongly doubt mentions this name. power~enwiki ( π, ν ) 00:43, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for reviewing this contribution.

Please do a search in Google Books for Halmos and "Emma Lemma" (https://www.google.com/search?num=100&newwindow=1&tbm=bks&ei=halmos+%22Emma+lemma%22&oq=halmos+%22Emma+lemma%22) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Emoritz2017 (talk • contribs) 01:25, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

you will notice that Google Books search returns the two following items. (quotes of search return including Emma Lemma term are bolded).

"I Want to be a Mathematician: An Automathography - Page 93

https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1461210844 P.R. Halmos - 2013 - ‎Preview - ‎More editions An Automathography P.R. Halmos. Hugh Dowker was von Neumann's ... '''The English translation by Mrs. Lehmer (usually referred to as Emma Lemma) had just come out, and it was an eye opener, a revelation, a thriller. Yes, a thriller—I read it ...''' The Penguin Book of Curious and Interesting Mathematics - Page 207

https://books.google.com/books?id=fG9GAAAAYAAJ David G. Wells - 1997 - ‎Snippet view '''... Pontrjagin's "Topological Groups". The English translation by Mrs Lehmer, ( usually referred to as Emma Lemma) ... a revelation, a thriller. Yes, a thriller - I read it almost as I would read a detective story, to find out who dunit.' Paul Halmos ..."'''

The term "Emma Lemma" is an inside term used by mathematicians of that era;  Paul Halmos is one of the most distinguished American Mathematicians; the fact that Halmos finds it sufficient to include the term in the memoir section during his time at the Institute of Advanced Studies while working as John Von Neumann's assistant should be sufficient to validate its significance and notability.

In addition, by including that discussion in his biography, Halmos points to the significance of the book Emma Lehmer translated and Emma Lehmer's significance as an American woman mathematician.Emoritz2017 (talk) 01:21, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Those two links are to different editions of the same book. Your claim that it's an "inside term" needs some other source. power~enwiki ( π,  ν ) 01:23, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions.  MT Train Talk 06:31, 24 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete or Redirect/merge to Emma Lehmer. I think it's obvious that there's not enough to say about the nickname itself for a standalone article. An alternative would be redirecting this to a (currently non-existent) article about Pontryagin's book, if it's sufficiently notable. (I think it's obvious that if the original book isn't notable enough for a standalone article then clearly the nickname of its translation isn't either). Pichpich (talk) 00:06, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Pichpich, thank you for the suggestion ... sounds like adding notes to the Emma Lehmer and to Lev Pontryagin articles and also creating an article for the book itself is the appropriate way forward. Google Scholar shows it has been cited by 1648 works. Part of the significance of the book is that it was purposely translated from the Russian text by the American Mathematical Society by Emma Lehmer. -- By the way, in researching this further, I found yet another reference to the use of ''Emma Lemma"", in [this work is focused on the contribution of Russian Mathematicians, this article states "In 1939 he was elected Corre- sponding Member of the Academy of Sciences of the USSR, and full mem- bership came in 1958 [38, p. 21]. This last election was planned and carried through by I. M. Vinogradov. In 1940 he was one of the first recipients of the Stalin Prize (later called the State Prize) for his monograph Topological Groups [38, p. 13]. Pontryagin was honored with the Order of the Red Banner of Labor, the Order of the Badge of Honor, the Golden Star of a Hero of Socialist Labor, more than once with the Order of Lenin, and also with the LobachevskflPrize for his research. He was also Editor-in-Chief of Matem- aticheski~ Sbornik for some time."

So USSR apparently awarded him its highest honors (Academy Membership, Stalin Prize, ...) for this book, and the U.S. American Mathematical Society commissioned the translation of this book from Emma Lehmer due to its significance. The article I cited here also states "This theory, historically, was the first really exceptional achievement in algebraic topology", which quite a distinctive assessment. Emoritz2017 (talk) 01:59, 25 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Comment I have no objection to an article on the book "Topological Groups", but dispute that "Emma Lemma" ever referred to that book. All of the "other" references appear to be direct quotes of Halmos. power~enwiki ( π,  ν ) 19:21, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

I am not clear what you mean by this last comment. I provided one direct quote in a book by Paul Halmos, a noted mathematician that worked at the Institute for Advanced Studies in Princeton, and was an established mathematician working premier math departments (U. of Chicago for example), as well as two references citing his work (one in another book, and one in a journal), those are all publically available, and they clearly refer to Emma Lemma as the Lehmer English translation of Pontryagin's book by Emma Lehmer ( UC Berkley, and later independent mathematician who has hundreds of publications to her name). Emoritz2017 (talk) 20:25, 25 June 2018 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Comment, this does not have the significant coverage to meet WP:GNG, suggest a redirect to Emma Lehmer, with expanded words on Topological Groups until a standalone on the book is made. Coolabahapple (talk) 01:53, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   06:30, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

Currently, there are several English translations:

(1) Topological Groups: Translated from the Russian by Emma Lehmer https://books.google.com/books?id=gl4nAQAAIAAJ Lev Semenovich Pontri︠a︡gin - 1939 -

(2) Topological Groups: Translated from the Russian by Arlen Brown https://books.google.com/books?id=TmuqtAEACAAJ Lev S. Pontrjagin - 1966 - ‎

(3) Topological Groups (Classics of Soviet Mathematics) (Volume 2) 1st Edition by R. V. Gamkrelidze (Author) (appears in Amazon as ISBN-10: 2881241336, as part of a four volume series of Prontrjagin's work, and published by CRC Press; 1 edition (March 6, 1987).

Note that different translators translate the author's name with slight variations; the 1987 version preface states that the translations have translated certain terms differently given the over 40 years that elapsed between the first translation and the 1987 translation.

Emoritz2017 (talk) 02:33, 2 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete or redirect: Suggest a redirect to Emma Lehmer until we get more information on the book. The "lemma" appears to be a nickname. Limit-theorem (talk) 00:58, 2 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete or redirect/merge  to Emma Lehmer. I find it very hard to believe that anyone with any proficiency in English would consider this nickname as applying to the book rather than to the translator. All the sources mentioned in the article and above are just copies of Halmos' quote. Paul Halmos was a careful expositor, had he been referring to the book he would have explained why the nickname was not grammatically correct (the appropriate nickname would have been "Emma's Lemmas" if the book was intended).
 * Delete or Redirect/merge to Emma Lehmer (see comment below). I guess that "Emma Lemma" is simply a transcription transliteration of the Russian name of Emma Lehmer. In fact, in Russian, names have a different form for men and women. The female version is often obtained by adding "a" to the male version, but this does not work with the final "er". So "Lema" or "Lemma" is the probable (I do not know enough Russian for being sure) female form of Lemer (the "h" disappears automatically with the transliteration in Russian). D.Lazard (talk) 09:05, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Just to be explicit: I did not refer to your use of "transcribe", but to the article's itself. I do, however, consider Lehmera to be a perfect female Russian form for a male name Lehmer, I disagree with the hypothesis of Lem(m)a being an appropriate female form for male Lehmer, and I agree on the highly irregular lengthening of a vowel by a postponed "h" not appearing within the Russian language. Purgy (talk) 11:01, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Mathematics-related deletion discussions. XOR&#39;easter (talk) 20:46, 2 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Comment. I have added a pointer to this discussion at Talk:Emma Lehmer, as I think should be a required part of the process whenever a merge is proposed at an AfD. To do otherwise risks the creation of two conflicting local consensuses, one at the AfD asking for a merge and a different one at the merge target where the editors may or may not feel that the merged content is worthy of inclusion. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:19, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete (the Emma Lemma-article) explication on request. 08:23, 4 July 2018 (UTC)  I strongly dispute even the factual correctness of this "article". "Emma Lemma" is defintly no "transcription", it is, at best, a funny(?) gaming with the pronunciation of "Emma Lehmer", possibly with slight German/Russian attitude, creating a phonetic nearness to a technical term in math, preceded by an alliterating female first name. Taking this as a transcription, hints to a severe spelling flaw. Considering wide spread objections to the inclusion of trivia in WP, there may be even doubt that this singularly(?) ascribed nick name/nom de plume/nom de guerre should be mentioned at all in the article about Emma Lehmer. Purgy (talk) 07:31, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
 * The current (obviously wrong) statement was made up by D.Lazard, because apparently who needs sourcing when you can just invent nonsense? On the other hand, the previous (also obviously wrong) statements were the result of a strange misreading of a source.  It would be good to be clear whether you want to delete only the new wrong thing or actually the article in all forms.  --2601:142:3:F83A:611C:BD4F:C063:4BF2 (talk) 13:06, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Hi, as the originator of the article, I find this discussion fascinating. please send me an email where I can respond to you by providing a screenshot image of the paragraph by Halmos. My intent was to point out a fact that shed light on some social/sociological/linguistic practices in the stratosphere of the professional mathematics community. The fact is supported by several references. The interpretation of the fact appears contentious. This was not my intent; my intent was to provide broader awareness of that fact. In the grand scheme of things, I am fine with deletion of the Emma Lemma page I started. Emoritz2017 (talk) 15:59, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you for this kind offer. I never doubted that Halmos reported this nick name/nom de plume/nom de guerre as used by fellow mathematicians. However, Halmos' claim remains poorly sourced, if not unsourced. Purgy (talk) 08:23, 4 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Comment. It appears that my guess about the meaning of "Emma Lemma" is definitively wrong. However this is clearly a nickname of Emma Lehmer, not of the book. A nick name that has been used in a single mathematical department and that has been reported in a single source (the other sources are quotations of Halmos) has no encyclopedic value. This a case of WP:1R. I have thus changed my !vote to delete. I have also edited Emma Lehmer for clarifying the meaning of "Emma Lemma". D.Lazard (talk) 09:58, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete or redirect. Not independently notable, and there is nothing here worth merging. —David Eppstein (talk) 23:24, 4 July 2018 (UTC)


 * sounds good :-) . The puzzle still remains, why the repeated mention of this, especially in a separate call out box in   Maritz, P. (2003). Around the graves of Petrovskii and Pontryagin. The Mathematical Intelligencer, 25(2), 55-73 https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Pieter_Maritz/publication/289954413_Around_the_graves_of_petrovskii_and_Pontryagin/links/57273c4708aee491cb411c28/Around-the-graves-of-petrovskii-and-Pontryagin.pdf.  - it is puzzling that a trivial / not notable item gets its own call-out box in a very polished high level survey of Soviet mathematics ...Emoritz2017 (talk) 01:52, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete Everything worth saying here is already in Emma Lehmer, and it doesn't strike me as a likely search term, so while redirects are cheap, I doubt one is needed here. XOR&#39;easter (talk) 02:04, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment. There is no puzzle about the Maritz article. The call out is the direct quote of Halmos that has been cited over and over, and is attributed to him. It is included because Halmos is praising the book in a particularly exuberant Halmos way. I would also point out to my esteemed colleagues, who have greater international "chops" than I, that this is almost without a doubt a sophomoric graduate student attempt at humor at an English speaking university. Halmos is being light-hearted by passing this along (he may even have originated it in his younger days, but that is a guess). It doesn't really say anything about Emma Lehmer, so I've also changed my !vote to delete. --Bill Cherowitzo (talk) 03:41, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment. In my perception it is not at all puzzling that "catchy phrases" are repeated over and over, beyond any reasonable limit. Anything catchy to promote oneself or ones friends has become necessary beyond all reasonable limits. It is by far easier to become a star by catchy features than by results (Perelman, who?, Wiles, yes, famous margin!). Being a woman is catchy in math, still. Purgy (talk) 08:11, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Oh good lord, what this conversation really needed was gratuitous comments that serve no purpose except to make female mathematicians uncomfortable. FFS.  --2601:142:3:F83A:3DBD:65DF:F011:5069 (talk) 22:04, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Try to read it as pinpointing a systemic bias, instead of whining about facts (Halmos promoting, catchyness per se). I felt uncomfortable, if not vulnerated, in reading the above womansplaining. :] Purgy (talk) 07:03, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't think "cute" and "clever" are your strong suit, but you are doing a good job of "abrasive asshole". --2601:142:3:F83A:716E:8F86:6A20:1BE3 (talk) 13:04, 7 July 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.