Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Empyria


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. \ Backslash Forwardslash / (talk) 21:02, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Empyria

 * – (View AfD) (View log)

Long article on Canadian band, but nothing in it shows that the band meets WP:MUSIC. Prod tag removed without explanation. No reliable independent sources. NawlinWiki (talk) 11:33, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of British Columbia-related deletion discussions.  —  JUJUTACULAR  | TALK 11:54, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions.  —  JUJUTACULAR  | TALK 11:54, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Actually yesterday this article was deleted, I removed the prod tag and I did include an explanation and then got the article proof read by User:RepublicanJacobite and given the OK. To summarize, I took an existing approved article on prog band thor (band) and changed citations and refs. The bottom line is that this article on empyria is by me user:empyria not affiliated to the band except that I know them. It has the same number of external citations and refs as the existing thor (band) article. I cite AMG and rockdetector as well as a discography. 2 of the founders of Empyria also play in thor (band). So if you feel this article should be deleted, please explain what makes thor (band) noteworthy of keeping or what I have failed to comply with in WP:MUSIC or what is the purpose of getting someone to proof read the article only for you to delete it. I cannot find the consistency in the logic Empyria (talk) 16:40, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Other stuff exists. Duffbeerforme (talk) 18:00, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Expanded, thor's allmusic link has a bio, empyria's does not. thor's article included articles on multiple RCA albums, a claim of notability, empyria's does not. Duffbeerforme (talk) 18:11, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi. Can you point me to which of the 12 WP:BAND criteria it meets?  Thanks.--Epeefleche (talk) 03:32, 17 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete, no evidence from WP:RS of notability per WP:BAND. -- Kinu t /c  04:13, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

While I agree that it initially fell under a Other stuff exists argument, you will see Duffbeerforme that I have added a bio ref (ref 4), 4 refs to a known book (ref 2), a radio interview on national radio with the band (3rd link), members of the band also play in other notable bands (KF with Warjunk, PL supported Nickleback, April Wine and Colin James). They are distributed via Nightmare Records (U.S)., Scrape Records (Canada), and Sanctuary Music (Germany) and appear in BW&BK (Canada), Heavy Oder Was?!! (Germany), Sea Of Tranquility (U.S.), Burrn! (Japan ) publications. And in answer to Epeefleche - it would be WP:BAND criteria 1, 4, 5 and 12 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Phil1001 (talk • contribs) 07:20, 17 October 2009 (UTC)  — Phil1001 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Keep, I would like to answer the queries and objections below. Firstly this is a new article and a new editor User:Phil1001 and I must say the experience has been like pushing water uphill. I created a page, based on a similar prog band which incidentally shares musicians Thor (band) had the article checked, published it and then ran into a total sh*tstorm.
 * I made no argument, I answered a question. Duffbeerforme (talk) 18:58, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
 * new spa phil claims satisfying WP:BAND criteria 1, 4, 5 and 12. #1, sources are Rockdetector (I have yet to be convinced this is a reliable source), Amazon (not an independent source), allmusic (just a listing, no non trivial coverage), last.fm (not a reliable source). Does not satisfy wp:band #1. #4, I see no non trivial coverage of an international concert tour, or a national concert tour in at least one sovereign country. #5, which albums on what label?? (distributing label is different to releasing label), # 12, what broadcast on what national radio or TV network? When you make such claims you should back them up with evidence. Duffbeerforme (talk) 19:21, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Wow user:Duffbeerforme cut some slack here... I understood that the idea of the Wiki was to contribute and add articles of interest, maybe not to everyones taste, the articles need to obviously be factual and unbiased and provide information. I was asked to cite sources, I used Rockdetector, Allmusic (AMG) and last.fm - these are well used sources and appear both throughout and themselves in the Wiki which implies they are valid as citations although you have yet to be convinced, otherwise we need to perform a delete on all bands that use them as a citation and then remove their own wiki entries. Furthermore a reliable source is relative, for a Genesis fan we might have a 700,000 articles - but for a small unknown offshoot of a genre we may only have 1,000 articles - so should this source be discarded? You will see that 2 members of Empyria have gone on International tours with Thor (USA and Canada) this falls under the provision of WP:Band and members who are/were touring artists. Empyria was interviewed and broadcast on the Drive FM, part of the Jim Pattison Group (National). Albums have been released on Nightmare Records Inc (notable Indie) and distributed via Sanctuary Records (Iron Maiden's ex-Management group).

Under the Empyria notability tree see WP:MUSICNN
 * Thor (band) is notable for reasons mentioned elsewhere
 * Mike Kischnik is notable for playing with Thor (Band)
 * Paul Falcon is notable for playing with Thor (Band)
 * Empyria has not achieved notability standards itself. However, it’s notable because of Kischnik and Falcon being past/present Thor (Band) members AND therefore being notable members of it.

I am sure it is not supposed to be this hard to add an entry and that as long as the information is correct and unbiased it should be kept. Phil1001 (talk) 23:09, 17 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I would suggest that you take a deep breath to handle the obvious frustration, and then just focus on WP:BAND. Figure out which 1 (or more) of the 12 criteria it meets.  Look for what wikipedia calls "reliable sources" to evidence that the band satisfies the criteria.  And share what you have found.


 * It may seem odd, but while many, many other band articles clearly do not reflect that they meet WP:BAND criteria (if indeed they do meet such criteria), if an editor nominates an article that you are interested in for deletion then suddenly that article comes under scrutiny and is deleted if the above steps are not taken to evidence how it meets WP:BAND criteria.


 * While under WP:WAX you can point to the existence of other similar articles on Wikipedia as part of a cogent argument for why this article should not be deleted (though not as the sole reason for not deleting it), I think it is the rare deletion-minded editor who gives weight to that particular WP:WAX guidance.--Epeefleche (talk) 00:42, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

OK - deep breath. Focusing on WP:BAND criteria Phil1001 (talk) 02:59, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
 * WP:BAND 1) Empyria published in Sharpe-Young Garry(2003). A-Z of Power Metal (first ed.). Cherry Red Books. ISBN 1901447138.
 * WP:BAND 5) Empyria has released one or more albums on notable Indie label (Nightmare Records) and major label Noise Records (Germany) part of the Sanctuary group.
 * WP:BAND 6) Empyria has 2 notable musicians ie: musicians that have played with a notable band Thor - Mike Kischnick and Paul Falcon
 * WP:BAND 12) Empyria was interviewed on a national radio station The Drive part of Jim Pattison Group - interview airplayed August 7th 2009 in Salem (US).
 * Could you please expand on what appears in Sharpe-Young Garry(2003). Duffbeerforme (talk) 15:31, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

 Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Beeblebrox (talk) 18:13, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.

Expansion on what appears in Sharpe-Young Garry(2003) for Duffbeerforme Phil1001 (talk) 22:13, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete I see no coverage in secondary sources. And how hard is it to make sure the links point to the right article? Can you get any sloppier? Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 18:38, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Pages 135 and 136, covers bands history and includes biography and details of the first 4 albums.
 * Found additional source The Collectors Guide to Heavy Metal; by Martin Popoff (1997) contains review for "Behind Closed Doors" 8/10
 * To TPH and otters if you have constructive criticism or would like to point out errors in my links, then let me know so I can fix it, if you simply want brag about your editing skills, then please do it on your own page. Which secondary sources are you not finding coverage in, please clarify so I can fix it.
 * The whole listing is about a Canadian prog metal band and whether it meets WP:BAND which I believe it does, the page can always be beautified as long as it is factually correct.
 * Good work. I would suggest (though this may not be required, it would help should the article survived and be re-AfD'd) that you work footnotes into the article with the material you found.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:24, 24 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep. Appears to have received sufficient coverage in reliable sources.--Michig (talk) 08:03, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep per Michig/WP:BAND criterion 1.--Epeefleche (talk) 08:41, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep due to coverage in Sharpe-Young Garry with help from Popoff. Duffbeerforme (talk) 12:18, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.