Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Endemic gastronomy


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep but move to Indigenous cuisine. A move is an unusual close for an AFD, so an explanation is in order. The key arguments by the delete camp are that the exact word string "endemic gastronomy" is essentially undocumented and hasn't gained much traction, and is perhaps also a bit promotional. The key arguments by the keep camp are that the underlying concept is covered in reliable sources and should be preserved in some way. Since the main problem flagged by the deletes is the name and the main point flagged by the keeps is the content, a rename of the article seems like a reasonable move to satisfy all concerns and points raised here. Some editors have proposed or "tolerate" a move to the title "indigenous cuisine". If people think a different title is appropriate or that the content could be copied elsewhere, they can start move, merge etc. discussions as appropriate. Some cleanup of the article may also be in order but that can be done outside of the AFD. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 17:01, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Endemic gastronomy

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

This seems to be a term used by a single upmarket restaurant and I do not think that it has any wider currency. TheLongTone (talk) 13:12, 29 May 2019 (UTC)


 * delete No book hits, 9 Ghits, one rather dubious Gscholar hit. There's simply nothing to work with beyond the definition which is obvious anyway. Mangoe (talk) 15:49, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete I've found a couple other places using the phrase but all in a promotional way. This might become a real thing and if so we can expect reliable sources to cover it, but for now TOOSOON given the lack of sources which satisfy GNG. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 18:29, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions.   C Thomas3   (talk) 19:10, 29 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Userfy Well-intentioned creator, subject seems quite likely to become a thing. Too soon, but perfect for userfying so the editor can add to it as other sources appear, maybe move to article space in a year or so. --valereee (talk) 19:27, 29 May 2019 (UTC) Changing to Keep as I've found and added multiple sources for "Indigenouse cuisine" and "Contemporary indigenouse cuisine," the former an overlapping concept and the latter an identical concept to "Endemic gastronomy." --valereee (talk) 16:41, 4 June 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep There are enough articles on the internet where it is reported that although the concept was formed in a restaurant (such as the currywurst in Berlin, Germany), it is being replicated in others. The fact that an article is promotional within the gastronomy does not mean that it is advertising. It is like articles on the Internet about molecular gastronomy or other types of cuisine. If the fact that it has been recognized by an international award of its own category is not enough (see the respective reference), the fact that it is a new concept, does it not encyclopedic? --Igallards7 (talk) 19:54, 29 May 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.191.3.29 (talk)
 * The point is, nobody seems to call it that, so there's really nothing we can say about it that comes from reliable sources. Mangoe (talk) 12:37, 3 June 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep/merge We have several articles of a similar kind, including local food, regional cuisine, food heritage, national dish and native cuisine of Hawaii. The idea seems clear enough and deletion is not appropriate per our policies WP:ATD and WP:PRESERVE. Andrew D. (talk) 23:00, 29 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Userfy - Valereee summed up my thoughts exactly. It appears to be WP:TOOSOON, based on the sources that are available now, but userfying it to allow the creator to improve on the article as more sources become available before submitting it back to article space seems fair.  Rorshacma (talk) 17:11, 30 May 2019 (UTC)


 * comment People really need to look this over further. I'm still getting next to no hits the the phrase itself; when I switch to the phrase actually used by Guzmán (endemic cuisine) I get more hits, but again all the book hits appear to be incidental, obvious juxtapositions of the two words, and do not refer to Guzmán's notion. There is no reason to make up a term that even the supposed inventor doesn't use, and given that the idea seems to have no traction, the most I can see is a redirect from the actual term to regional cuisine, and even that is questionable. Mangoe (talk) 12:37, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Question Good idea to try alternate search terms! There are actually multiple hits on 'Indigenous cuisine'! It seems to be used primarily in the Americas, but unless someone here objects to it as an alternate term for this subject, I'll add those sources in? --valereee (talk) 13:19, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, T. Canens (talk) 00:50, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep Found several sources on the matter, 139 ghits when the phrase is quoted. I honestly would propose that the article be moved to "indigenous cuisine", as the current title is needlessly pedantic. 139 ghits when "endemic gastronomy" is quoted, while there are "61,000" ghits for "indigenous cuisine" quoted. If the terms are truly synonymous, then it should be moved to the title where it is more commonly referred to. Clearly AGF regardless of outcome, but there are enough sources to work with. UtopianPoyzin (talk) 01:10, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment - I have to say that this whole discussion strikes me as somewhat incoherent. First of all, 'Indigenous cuisine' is cultural (as in the culture of indigenous peoples, which in Canada for example, might be expressed as 'First Nations' people). It's not about cooking with foods from a place. And using 'endemic' to describe a style of cooking isn't exactly complimentary. Someone probably mistranslated something (or needed a better translation beforehand, or a word has different implications in a different language). A recalibration is in order and this should be deleted with extreme prejudice. But I'll read the sources and make a proper vote later. Regards, ogenstein (talk) 07:16, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
 * DELETE - While the word 'endemic' has a couple of meanings, it is commonly used to describe a disease or condition: From Oxford: "(of a disease or condition) regularly found among particular people or in a certain area: complacency is endemic in industry today."


 * Putting aside whether we should be endeavouring to associate this with cultural groups and their food preparation, the marketing people who thought it up were eventually educated and no longer wish to use it to describe the restaurant they were pushing. This is likely why you didn't finding the term spreading. It's not wikipedia's place to provide fuel to marketing campaigns, especially when they're so blatently promotional in nature, e.g. a travel magazine, restaurant blog. Even worse, both were just quoting the chef so these sources are not valid for creating a page, let alone redirecting another page to it. All other uses of 'endemic' on the azureazure site are unrelated to a style of cooking and fall into the second definition, "(of a plant or animal) native or restricted to a certain place: a marsupial endemic to north-eastern Australia".


 * This whole article is trying to piggyback on (or coopt really) something which actually exists - indigenous cuisine. All of the other references have nothing to do with this page. Both of the references that do exist restrict it to the single restaurant. So if you wish to write about that restaurant or chef in particular, then have at it, but the term should not be used for any general purpose. Those two references are also nothing except WP:PROMOTION and wikipedia shouldn't be an adjunct to misguided marketers.


 * This page is a case of credulity run amok. And I just noticed that 'indigenous cuisine' actually redirects to this mess? So let me rephrase what I wrote above. This article coopts something which already exists. I hope I haven't been too brusque here and I assume good faith but it needs to be fixed. WP:SALT ogenstein (talk) 17:41, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment - My apologies, apparently the restaurant in question does still exist. My failed attempts to visit the site must have been a temporary issue so I have removed that comment. ogenstein (talk) 17:47, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment - I should also add that on the restaurant site, the chef refers to cooking with produce that is endemic to Chile, which I have no issue with, or on the cocinacaribe.com page which comments on distinguishing between endemic and introduced produce. Additionally, there may be a language issue with terms such as 'endémico', 'producto' and 'gastronomía' not being used identically as the similar words in English. ogenstein (talk) 18:11, 6 June 2019 (UTC)


 * Comment No objection whatsoever to moving page to "Indigenous cuisine". This is clearly a thing, and if this is the wrong title, let's move it to the correct title. --valereee (talk) 17:54, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:TNT. I have no objection to an article on indigenous cuisine, that would be good, but the term has been shoehorned into this article as a supposed synonym to try to save it.  The result is an irretrievable mess.  As far as I can see, the promotional term endemic gastronomy does not belong anywhere on Wikipedia, not even in an article on indigenous cuisine. SpinningSpark 18:41, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
 * , you don't think we can just move this to Indigenous cuisine and fix it? I'm open to deleting and starting over, but if it just needs to be indigenous cuisine it seems like a move would be the first step? --valereee (talk) 16:45, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
 * No, the first step is to delete with extreme prejudice the idea that an article on indigenous cuisine could be started with a discussion of one establishment's promotional buzzword that may only be tangentially related to the subject. I agree with Mothman; an article on indigenous cuisine should not have "endemic gastronomy" either in its text or its history. SpinningSpark 17:40, 7 June 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.