Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Endrid Bookling


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Vanamonde (Talk) 13:10, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Endrid Bookling

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Biography of a medieval courtier that appears to be constructed out of passing mentions in a single text. I can’t find anything else online about him though there may be other sources. I don’t think the existing sourcing is sufficient to support a stand-alone biography even of such an ancient figure. Mccapra (talk) 23:06, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. Mccapra (talk) 23:06, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Norway-related deletion discussions. Mccapra (talk) 23:06, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Royalty and nobility-related deletion discussions. Curbon7 (talk) 23:32, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Curbon7 (talk) 23:35, 17 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Comment: Generally we give a lot of leeway here with regards to pre-modern history; however, besides the one very minor sentence in the Rolls Series source, literally nothing else seems to exist. "Bookling" is likely an anglicized version of his original surname, so I searched using similar surnames (including Bokling, Bøkling, etc.), but similarly none returned any sources. This cited volume of the Rolls Series is derived from the Saga of Haakon Haakonarson, so I'll poke around the original material to see if I can find any mention, but at the moment I'm leaning delete . Curbon7 (talk) 23:46, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * One thing I'm seeing is that Endrid may also be a misspelling. Pg 33 in the Rolls Series source shows his name as Eindrid, (in Old Norse, Eindriði).This is a stark difference from Endrid, whose Old Norse derivision is Æinriði, apparantly. Curbon7 (talk) 01:43, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Ok I finally figured out his non-anglicized name thanks to the appendix of the Rolls Series source. His name in Old Norse is "Eindriði Bækill", and the appendix describes him as a steward. Curbon7 (talk) 02:00, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
 * In response to Curbon there are a lot of spelling inconsistencies in the book but Endrid Bookling and Eindrid Bookling are the same person. --Tgec17 (talk) 02:09, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Ok so my final findings more or less. The only additional source I could find using his Norse name was from the a modern analysis of the works of Snorri Sturluson, a contemporary historian. This source (of which I found two slightly different translations: ) describes Bækill as alive in 1270 and having delivered the Járnsíða, the Icelandic law-code written by King Magnus VI of Norway, to the Icelandic Althing (parliament). This source explicitly states this is the same Bækill that served King Haakon IV, meaning it's the same Bækill that appears in the Rolls Series source. With this in mind, my final !vote decision will be either Keep or merge. Curbon7 (talk) 02:20, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I find it highly questionable that he could have been alive in 1270 as he would have had to have been around 90-100 years old. Not unheard of for the time but very unlikely. --Tgec17 (talk) 02:28, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
 * , Right? That's the weird thing; the only alternatives are he's younger than we think he is, but even if he was 20 in 1217, by 1270 that would put him around 75. It's also strange that the analysis discusses a law that was written 30 years after the assassination of Sturluson, but footnote 148 makes it explicit that they're talking about the same Bækill. Curbon7 (talk) 02:32, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
 * and pretty sure the idea that people in the Middle Ages dropped dead at 30 is a myth. There were people who grew to ripe old age in Medieval Europe. Even Augustus lived to 75! BuySomeApples (talk) 05:50, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree that its a myth apple but if you look at the age of deaths for the nobility in the 13th century most of the time they seem to live to between 50-65 assuming they don't die of unnatural causes. For example William Marshal lived to 73 and was considered very old at the time of his death. William's own father had lived to sixty; however none of William's sons lived up to 50 most dying in their 40s. (None of his five sons had legitimate issue and it was considered that his line had been cursed by an Irish Bishop) --Tgec17 (talk) 18:21, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
 * For a courtier who lived at least 75 years across the reigns of more than one king he certainly deserves his own Wikipedia article. The previous death at 1240 which I had marked is based off of his attachment to Skule Bardsson who died in battle in 1240; the assumption was that Bookling must have died with him in battle. However if he was a priest or clergymen maybe he could have avoided it? Or maybe he was off on business elsewhere? Also would it have been considered normal for very old men to be delivering laws? Often there seems to be references to elders handling laws so maybe this just happens to be a good example of it. The funny part is that if he was 90 years old delivering laws in 1270 that in of itself would make him notable. --Tgec17 (talk) 02:34, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Keep standalone article, or merge?
 * Comment: He is mentioned in the Rerum Britannicarum Medii Aevi Scriptore at least three times on page 33, 51, and 78. You must look carefully and read the full page auto search will not work. He is probably mentioned more times but I haven't thoroughly read the entire text. --Tgec17 (talk) 00:22, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
 * , may I ask how where you got that he was born crica 1180 and died circa 1240; I'm seeing some conflicting sourcing that shows him alive in 1270. Curbon7 (talk) 02:11, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Bookling is first mentioned in the Hakan saga in the year 1217 as one of the Croziermen involved with the peace so he had to have been a grown man by then. He is refered to as bookling which seems to imply that he was a cleric meaning he would have been probably at least in his thirties at the time of the negotiations if not older. From this it is possible to conclude he must have been born before 1185. Considering he was mentioned in the negotiations he must have had some degree of prominence which would make it likely that he was in his late thirties or older by 1217. The last time he is mentioned in Rerum is in 1222 so its reasonable to assume that he would have died around the age of 60 which is a normal age of death for the time. I don't know where you got 1270 from.--Tgec17 (talk) 02:26, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
 * , see my !vote comment. Curbon7 (talk) 02:24, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep: Even if little is known about the person, he obviously played a part in Norwegian history and is mentioned in various sources. The article could certainly be expanded in line with the comments above.--Ipigott (talk) 11:00, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Rename -- Spellings in historical documents are frequently erratic. However two of the references are to Einridi Bookling and only one to the other spelling, so that I would suggest rename to that.  The Source cited should be cited more specifically as "Icelandic Sagas [etc concerning] The British Isles: IV Saga of Hacon (trans. Sir G. W. Dasent), Rolls Series 1894".  As we known neither dates of birth nor death, it may be best to give his dates as floruit 1217-22.  Any specific dates would offend against WP:OR.  Peterkingiron (talk) 13:52, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Since he is mentioned as living in 1270 it would be FL 1217-1270. But it can be factually said that he was born before 1200 with no speculation. What would be better would be to say born before 1200 and died after 1270 because it provides more information and is not based on speculation. You could even say born before 1190 because he is mentioned as a crozierman/bagler in 1217 it is therefore impossible that he was born after 1200 and highly probable he was born years before. Indeed it would be very strange if a 17 year old was granted a stewardship, not to mention the fact that he would have had to have been fighting at the age of 17 if he was born in 1200. Its far more likely he was born around 1190. I can't think of a good reason to change the name as he is refered to as Eindrid, Endrid, and Einridi... Endrid is just easier. --Tgec17 (talk) 08:00, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment the discussion above is very interesting but it suggests to me that there is a fair amount of inference in this article; there’s lots of “he had to have been”, “likely that”, speculation about his age and so forth. There may we’ll be enough to merge some content to another article but I don’t think we usually base bio articles on this kind of textual detective work. Mccapra (talk) 18:20, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment I'd say there are plenty of examples of Wikipedia articles from the period with less information on birth and death and less information in general. For example many of the troubadours have less information but still have their own separate Wikipedia pages despite being arguably less notable than a Norwegian statesman active for 70+ years.--Tgec17 (talk) 03:22, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Vanamonde (Talk) 05:55, 25 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep - per arguments made by Curbon7 and Ipigott, which I find compelling.  St ★ lwart 1 1 1 06:37, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep as I'm inclined to agree with the fact per above there's still actual historic significance and substance therefore enough for an article showing this. Thanks VocalIndia (talk) 16:50, 31 August 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.