Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Eng-tips.com


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep.  MBisanz  talk 04:14, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Eng-tips.com

 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

Procedural nomination. This article was originally nominated for CSD and I find that the allbusiness.com source to be leaning too far toward legitimacy to delete the article. The article is still promotional in nature and could probably still be deletable under G11 criteria. However, I'm taking it to the community to decide it's notability. Trusilver 03:43, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete. Promotional. No reliable, non-trivial third-party mentions from what I could gather.  Graymornings (talk) 05:11, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * This article is far from blatant spam. It was written in a neutral POV (even during the version you read). In that version, the article also contained one reliable source. Cunard (talk) 17:52, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, sorry. I meant "few" reliable sources. Now that some reliable print sources have established notability/verifiability, I'm changing my vote to keep. I now have confidence that this article can be cleaned up and made Wiki-worthy.  Graymornings (talk) 18:18, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

What can I do to make it non-promotional? I am not intending it to be a promotional article. 71.197.153.187 (talk) 05:18, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete - It may be a legit company, but I read the article as a promotional piece lacking notability. ttonyb1 (talk) 05:26, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep - Three magazine articles are cited to show eng-tips is notable. Lgmagone (talk) 06:11, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Once again, what should be changed to make it non-promotional? I have cited three separate magazine articles discussing eng-tips.com71.197.153.187 (talk) 05:27, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Adding additional sources is not going to change the promotional tone that it already has. The wording of the content in the article itself needs to be changed in order to avoid having it has a promotional tone (see WP:SPAM). It can be as clearly notable as day, but if it's worded like you're trying to sell something, then it's not acceptable in an encyclopedia (this one or any one). MuZemike 06:33, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * How is this article promotional? This article has been neutrally written from the version that Trusilver brought the article to AfD. As a neutral, third-party who has no connections with this website, I am having trouble seeing the spam that you, the nom, and the above two deleters have purported to be in this article. However, I have no trouble in seeing violations of WP:BITE in this deletion discussion. Cunard (talk) 17:52, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

So I am hearing three complaints:
 * 1) It needs to be "wikified" at some point. (Question: Should the article be deleted because it is not wikified?)
 * 2) Eng-tips.com may not be notable in accordance with wikipedia's guidelines.(Question: Do the references provided make it notable?)
 * 3) The article reads more like an advertisement than like an encyclopedia article. (Question: If eng-tips.com is notable, should the article be deleted because of poor writing? Or should it remain and get rewritten?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lgmagone (talk • contribs) 16:56, 16 January 2009
 * Several of the references in this version of the article are not reliable sources. However, this one is. An article should not be deleted due to wikification concerns. Nor should the article be deleted if it's promotional (which it is not). Cunard (talk) 17:52, 16 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep This website passes WP:WEB (criterion 1) with the magazine article from Test & Measurement World. One of the other two magazines is a duplicate of the Test & Measurement World article, but this only shows that the article was circulated to a larger number of people. The third magazine article, though written by a forum manager, was published as a technology article in Light magazine, which is owned by PennWell Corporation. Another two magazine sources are from Sensors Magazine. Eng-tips is also given a very brief mention in Hilary Nickell's Surfing Your Career, which says that this site is a "site of interest" for those wishing to pursue engineering careers. Reliable sources from engineering universities that use this website include page 11 of Biomedical Engineering Society (BMES) written by Herbert F. Voigt, which provides an entire column profiling the usage of this website. This website is used by National Center for Appropriate Technology (NCAT) as well as over 200 colleges and universities in Australia and the United States. There are enough news sources and magazine articles discussing this website to pass the general notability guidelines. Cunard (talk) 17:31, 16 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep and cleanup. The coverage mentioned establishes the site as notable.  The advertising tone can be dealt with through editting. -- Whpq (talk) 17:57, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Weak keep. Article needs serious cleanup, but the references seem to warrant the article's inclusion. Drmies (talk) 18:49, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

This is the fifth iteration of the article. The previous four were deleted within hours. The reason why it needs serious work is I am reluctant to put significant time into editing until I know that the article will not be speedily deleted. Lgmagone (talk) 19:00, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The current version of the article is not being considered for speedy deletion. It is going through a discussion for deletion process which normally runs 5 days.  -- Whpq (talk) 19:06, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * That statement is inaccurate. I have gone back through the deletion logs for this article and the article has only been created a single time previously, on January 14th, where it was speedy deleted... improperly I think. Trusilver  19:46, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Lgmagone, cleanup (reference formatting, removing duplicate information, encyclopedic tone) really doesn't take that long. I just did it. Drmies (talk) 19:59, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The first time eng-tips.com was pulled down I tried to create an article for the company that runs eng-tips.com instead, hoping that my error was trying to create an article for a website instead of a company. I attempted three times to create that article before giving up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tecumseh_Group Lgmagone (talk) 20:11, 16 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Note to Cunard: nice work. Drmies (talk) 21:40, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Seconded. Nice save.  Graymornings (talk) 22:14, 16 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.