Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Engineering Undergraduate Society of the University of British Columbia (2nd Nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result of the debate was Keep Kotepho 07:41, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Engineering Undergraduate Society of the University of British Columbia
Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy: '''There is no excuse for personal attacks on other contributors. Do not make them.' Comment on content'', not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that you may be blocked for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thanks. Andrew jur e  n (talk) 01:46, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

This article fails to show why it should be included in an encyclopedia. Non-notable. Delete Ardenn 19:42, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep. Also, please stop biting the newbies Ardenn. The president of a significant real life organization, which is clearly notable is helping to improve this article.  Don't delete please. --Nick Dillinger 20:40, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep. Thank you Nick. I am new, and I am getting no help or suggestions. ryanc 20:41, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * There's no proof of who he really is, and regardless, it's still NOT NOTABLE . Ardenn 20:44, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Come to my office, at least it will give you peace of mind that I am who I say I am. ryanc 20:47, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Will you pay for the flight from Ottawa? Not everyone who edits here is from BC. Ardenn 20:47, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes. Honestly, the best proof I can give you is if you check the website. [EUS] it says on the start page that I'm elected.  Also you can email the presidents email, it gets forwarded to my hotmail account.ryanc 20:53, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete as non-notable student group. Ardenn is altogether correct when she intimates that, irrespective of the propriety of her nominating the article of a newbie, the group is non-notable; no decorous welcome would change that.  There are cases in which the subject of an article can be identified as notable even where no assertion of notability is made; in such cases it is surely appropriate for an editor either to improve the article him/herself or to contact the creator and suggest that he/she edit the article in order that notability should be established (or at least that an assertion should be essayed); here, even asd the article presents a good deal of information about the subject, it is eminently clear that the subject is non-notable, which term we generally ascribe to student groups save those which are university-wide (see, e.g., student governments, especially at Canadaian colleges and universities) or otherwise notable (see, e.g., The Whiffenpoofs).  Joe 21:06, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * The EUS is an internationally known group. In Vancouver alone we are known extremely well for 'hanging the bug', and our red jackets which can be seen all over the city.  Many engineers worldwide also have these red jackets.  Internationally we also have recognition from our many stunts as seen in the article.  I would be more than happy to expand on some of the stunts.  FYI The Queen of England, Prince Charles, Boris Yeltsin, and Scotty from Star Trek all have been given reds and have worn them (exception: the Queen did not wear hers to my knownledge).  ryanc 21:13, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * internationally known group That's stretching the term to near meaninglessness: you traveled down to San Francisco and performed a juvenile stunt on the Golden Gate Bridge, which netted you an item in the morning paper. Big whoop. --Calton | Talk 01:21, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete or, failing that, merge into Alma Mater Society of the University of British Columbia and/or University of British Columbia. It is a very nicely done article, but it's just non-notable. &mdash; Rebelguys2 talk 21:09, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * You cannot merge it into the AMS or the UBC articles. That's not what they're about.  The EUS is a very seperate group. ryanc 21:14, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment Merge is surely permissible here; many articles about colleges and universities enumerate active student groups. Joe 21:26, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep I'd say this at least provides notability. Gw e rnol 21:17, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks gwernol, I was looking for that article. Also see this or this. ryanc 21:20, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Notability, my foot. I remember the San Francisco Chronicle story at the time: a very small news item marking a badly executed college prank. --Calton | Talk 01:21, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Badly executed in what way? TastyCakes 07:38, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment The "Bug incident" perhaps merits an article more than does the group. If, though, a pattern of noteworthy and well-covered stunts can be demonstrated, then the group would likely be notable.  Joe 21:26, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Joe, the start of the article is just the tip of the iceberg. Note that the original bug stunt was in the late 70's on Lion's Gate bridge.  A bug was also placed on top of the clocktower at UBC.  I have many articles in our archives. ryanc 21:33, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep a society at a school. For great justice. 22:32, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Do you pick random sentences to paste in after your standard "Keep" votes, as it appears, or is there some deep meaning escaping me here? --Calton | Talk 01:21, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure I understand your question. I voted to keep this, because it is a society, at a school. There's nothing random about the sentence, it relates to the article. For great justice. 05:38, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep, but will need to cite sources and have more NPOV. Also, see this essay on notability.Andrew jur e  n (talk) 23:25, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete I'd actually have put it up for Speedy deletion under db-club. But that's besides the point. The point here is, the wiki community has repeatedly agreed that, in Canada, only the overall Student Society, the one representing al students, such as SSMU, AMS and UASU are noteable enough, in and of themselves, for articles. If the EUS has some other claim to faim, so be it. But at this point, there is no reason for this article. pm_shef 23:37, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Ignorance is bliss. There is reason for this article.  The EUS is an internationally known society for reasons I've already stated.  ryanc 23:57, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Can you please show where this has been "repeatedly agreed" upon? Andrew jur e  n (talk) 00:12, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 *  We have been through situations like this in history before with the likes of the logical positivists. While the intentions of the logical positivists were to remove false and untruthful facts, they lacked consistency in their definitions for what was 'notable.' I see here similar inconsistencies in determining what is 'notable.' Case in point, explain to me how this is more 'notable' than a well meaning and prominant engineering society . The fact that the entry simply exists, effort was put into providing the world with a history of the society and that people are here fighting to keep it suggests that this entry is notable.  KevinReilly 00:57, 20 April 2006 (UTC) User's first edit
 * Well, Mr Brand-New Editor, you might have had the ghost of shred a possibility of a point if the comparison in your cliched "If X article exists, why can't mine?" argument (I swear, I'm going to start numbering them, for convenience) was to an article that had been through the AFD -- which, quelle surprise, it hasn't. Of course, the article you dredged up from whatever dark corner of Wikipedia you found it has nothing -- vip, zero, nada, nil -- do with the actual article under discussion, either in terms of subject area and appropriate notability standards.
 * And that's not even touching on the most basic of issues: we're not discussing the deletion of that article here. We're also not talking about global warming, whether the Socreds are coming back, or the best place to spot American TV stars working in Vancouver, all subjects equally as valid as the one you're attempting to misdirect us to: we're discussing the deletion of the Engineering Undergraduate Society of the University of British Columbia article. Period/full stop/EOL. --Calton | Talk 01:21, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * WP:NPAWell you missed my point it seems. I'm not arguing "if this is here, why isn't that one." I'm not even arguing in favour of either direction. I simply stated that this agruement of notability is flawed... There are inconsistencies in the way this is being editted..
 * WP:NPA. Ardenn 00:24, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I re-worded my entry so it was less of an 'attack.' Though the entry here before was a slight 'personal attack,' entries shouldn't be simply editted by others. A lot of valid points were missed when someone editted it. Oh...and the way it was editted... spectacular.. really I don't know how missed ommiting some of those valid points... KevinReilly 01:08, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep even though as an arts grad I should oppose on principle ;-) I'll agree that it's undesirable to have an entry for every little club that might form on any given campus. That said, I have no opposition to articles on student clubs that have established a significant presence, even if it's within their own campus. There are a few student societies popping up on AfD with enough frequency that I've begun to suspect it's a bit arbitrary what makes one "notable" and another not. I've seen it suggested that one can substitute a place like Harvard and the entry would still fail notability. Let's take a look at some of the entries on clubs at Harvard: Harvard Computer Society; Harvard-Radcliffe Science Fiction Association; Final club. What makes these any more notable than the UBC EUS? I say leave them all up. Fluit 01:15, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you. My point exactly. KevinReilly 01:18, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Except your point is wrong: see Articles for deletion/Harvard Computer Society -- whoops, looks like it WAS deleted but recreated, so I'll slap on a "db-repost" tag there -- and the Harvard-Radcliffe Science Fiction Association are co-responsible for the Ig Nobel Prize -- surely engineers fond of practical jokes have heard of them? If you have problem with the article's existence, the Articles for deletion can provide some help. --Calton | Talk 01:27, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment: That's my point exactly - I have no problem with their existence. Mark them all keep.Fluit 01:43, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete. It's just another student group -- and one that's not as well-known as their egos want it to be. --Calton | Talk 01:21, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * WP:NPA. ryanc 01:33, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Ya no kidding, cool those jets Calton. TastyCakes 07:24, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment. Clearly, the article is undergoing a substantial amount of change (compare the 16:40 April 18 version to the 13:29 April 19 version and you can see how much it has changed in the less than 24 hours. I propose that this AfD be placed on hiatus to allow for editors to improve the article (especially in regard to notability and verifiability, removing an original research.) I am strongly against the categorical removal of this article simply because it is about a university society, unless there is a proven discussion about this sort of categorical deletion policy that can be documented. Andrew jur e  n (talk) 02:44, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep - the Golden Gate Bridge job should be considered rather notable in itself, and the lifting of the Rose Bowl adds to it. Media coverage has indicated notability in the past, and should probably be considered here as well. (Not an Engineer, for the record.)Tony Fox 05:17, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep. Beetle stunt gives them notability. But people involved with the group should not be the ones editing it. And it needs sources. Fagstein 07:15, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree, however there are many stunts which may be overlooked. Like stealing the speaker's chair from parliament in Victoria BC. ryanc 19:06, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep. Stunts make it notable if nothing else.  Could maybe afford to lose the list of positions on the executive though.  Why exactly are we doing this again?  Thought there was pretty good consensus last time this was nominated..  TastyCakes 07:22, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep - extracuricular activities make them notable. Recommended improvements above seconded.  Georgewilliamherbert 21:13, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Smerge to University of British Columbia. Stifle (talk) 14:03, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
 * The UBC article is already criticized as being too long and full of random crap. I don't think the EUS can be added to it without reducing the quality of both articles.  TastyCakes 17:51, 22 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete. "Stunts make them notable" ?? "extracuricular activities make them notable." ?? They are a school society. They have a organizational structure.  They have a mission statement, traditions, special clothing, a song, and a totem rock.  Same as a zillion other non-notable groups.  Delete.  Now if you are tickled by the pranks (repeated in kind by quite a few other student groups) then move those particulars to some other page entertaining the world with the like.  Shenme 19:44, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Why does everyone that has a problem with the article seem really grumpy? TastyCakes 07:28, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep. The EUS has traditionally had a prominent (and often controversial) presence on the UBC campus, and it has established a certain international notoriety over the years. The annual stunts during Engineering Week have attained [| local], [| national], and even [international] attention.  I agree that the page needs a substantial rewrite to focus on the aspects of the EUS that are noteworthy to readers outside of the UBC community. However, it should not be turfed just because it is a "student society".  Successfully planning, coordinating, and executing schemes to "borrow" the Speaker's chair from the BC Legislature, hijack the Rose Bowl trophy from the University of Washington, and hang Volkswagen Beetles from (among others) the Lions Gate Bridge and the Golden Gate Bridge is, I think, worthy of an article. I'll also add my voice to those asking "Why are we doing this again?" (See the first AfD, from only a month ago, nominated by the same editor.)  Ckatz 05:39, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep. Their pranks have been recorded in the local media, they have hung Volkswagons from the lions gate bridge and built then around support beams in various faculties lobbies. --TrollHistorian 15:07, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not for things made up in school one day Ardenn 15:18, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Since Vancouver is the economic Hub of British Columbia most people in BC get their news from Vancouver. The Vancouver Sun has on various occasions covered the exploits of this engineering society. Thus anyone in BC knows that the UBC engineers attempt MIT-esque pranks. The authors of the article should simply link to the news coverage and then this would be a non-issue. This isn't made up one day. The pranks are basically repeated every year. My complaints with the article is that the authors did not take the necessary time actually go and collect links like this: Beetle Overboard! VW hung off GG Bridge in prank. The fact is these engineers even leave their own community to commit pranks. --TrollHistorian
 * Why is WINFTMUISOD even being mentioned? The second paragraph of that page, titled "This page in a nutshell", states "Resist the temptation to write about the new, great thing you and/or your friends just thought up." How does this apply here - and why are we even wasting time on it? Ckatz 16:51, 26 April 2006 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.