Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Engkanto


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   nomination withdrawn. PhilKnight (talk) 15:30, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Engkanto

 * – (View AfD)

Notability concerns - lack of coverage in reliable sources independent of the subject. PhilKnight (talk) 12:54, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep Have added two journal article reference to talk page and intend to update page itself later. Dpmuk (talk) 13:03, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep. This appears to be part of traditional Filipino beliefs. See http://www.google.com/search?q=Engkanto See the scholarly article at http://www.jstor.org/pss/1177781 --Eastmain (talk) 13:07, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Philippines-related deletion discussions.   —Eastmain (talk) 13:07, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Religion-related deletion discussions.   —Eastmain (talk) 13:07, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete The aforementioned Google search turns up a lot of irrelevant links, and the few that relate to the subject may not pass WP:RS requirements. (The JSTOR article is not accessible to non-subscribers, so I cannot comment on that piece.) As for "traditional beliefs," it appears to be isolated to some rural areas and not the Philippine culture as a whole (do Engkantos turn up in Manila?) If additional information is presented to justify its notability, I will gladly switch sides on the matter. Ecoleetage (talk) 13:28, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Quote from article "What is noteworthy is that this belief seems to have perdured for at least four centuries: Povedano (16th century), Alzina (17th) and Pavon (19th) allude to the belief in engkantos. Nor is the belief dead today. In a year's time I was able to collect 87 long and short narratives from persons who either themselves had been befriended or kidnapped by engkantos, or from people very closely associated with the victims, and are therefore presumed to know about the case." I think what's noteworthy about that is that it's 87 people who have been effected by it so it's probably (was?) a much more widly held belief - after all lots of people believe in UFOs but relatively few say they've seen one. Dpmuk (talk) 13:44, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment. Even though the full text of the JSTOR article is unavailable to nonsubscribers, enough of it is displayed to confirm coverage in reliable sources (in this case, a scholarly journal article written by a Jesuit). --Eastmain (talk) 13:45, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * That JSTOR article is a reliable search both on visual inspection of the first page and further investigation. Google scholar is aware of two citations to it, and is clearly understating that number because it was also republished as a piece of the book Myths and Symbols, Philippines by the same author, which has had at least two editions in 1978 and 1981.  The author (now deceased) was "one of the most active scholars in the area of Philippine folklore.   and "widely recognized" .  It appears there is some lack of agreement on the proper transliteration into English; this JSTOR paper uses "Ingkanto" (and cites F. Demetrio's, but google scholar doesn't list that as a cite...) is also clearly a reliable source on the topic.  I thus believe that keeping the article is appropriate.  GRBerry 14:04, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment On the JSTOR article: what can be seen to non-subscribers appears to be a wholly anecdotal collection of comments from an extremely limited number of people (in comparison to the overall population of the Philippines). The UFO analogy is wobbly, at best – a great many people have claimed to have seen UFOs and there is plenty of footage of unidentified objects that have yet to be explained away, where I don’t believe any footage exists regarding these very isolated Pinoy spirits. I would also question the inclusion of Encyclopedia Mythica as a reliable source in the main article – that looks like the IMDb of ghost stories. That being said, this will be my last comment on this subject, as I would rather see full consensus from the Wikipedia community on this article's notability. Ecoleetage (talk) 14:10, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment I agree the UFO analoy is dodgy - it was the best I could come up with. Personally I think it's on the border line but also looking for consensus so will be my last comment as well.  Have changed my statement above to 'weak keep' Dpmuk (talk) 14:19, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment. Do not rely on Google when searching for articles about the Philippines, as its websites often have no reliable search functions or not accessible in search engines.  Engkanto is a part of Philippine mythology that is still believed in the rural areas, and may have notable sources from books and other archived publications. Starczamora (talk) 14:21, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep. I found this article from The Open University in UK entitled "The Ethics of Suspicion in the Study of Religions" by Paul-François Tremlett, stating...
 * Any visitor to the Philippines willing to spend a little time each day to watch local television, read newspapers and comics, catch a movie or live with a family will soon come to be aware of stories about sorcery and witchcraft (kulam), of blood-sucking flying bats (aswáng and manananggal), dwarves and elves (duwende), spirits that enchant the unwary such as the engkanto and tikbalang, ancestral spirits (anito), as well as the pervasive use of creolised prayers that combine Tagálog, Spanish and Latin (orasyón) and amulets (antíng-antíng) through which to guard against the mischief or possible malevolence of these alleged super-natural agents or for the accumulation of spiritual power and potency (kapangyarihan). These kinds of beliefs and associated practices sit beside popular christianised practices of healing and pilgrimage as well as more ‘exotic’ practices such as self-flagellation and crucifixion...
 * The engkanto are spirits whose domain of specialisation and modus operandi is the seduction and then possession of human subjects. The results of seduction and possession amount to a diminution of the self and the erasing of physical and mental individuality such that the one possessed can no longer be recognised. Typical symptoms of seduction and possession include conversing with invisible others, becoming stiff and going into a trance-like state, getting lost in the woods, acting violently towards family members and friends and memory loss.
 * Tagálog healers claim that the self consists of seven aspects that must remain bound together if the integrity and identity of the self is to be maintained. Seduction and possession by an engkanto leads to the separation or loss or calling away of one or more of these aspects or strands of the non-material aspects of the self. Vulnerability to loss of identity resonates with local uses of amulets (antíng-antíng) that render the wearer invulnerable to either physical or spiritual harm. However, vulnerability to seduction also resonates with the complex history of a country that since 1565 has been subject to Western influence and which, in more recent years, has made its most profitable export its own population who work the globe as seamen, dancers, hostesses, nannies, nurses, carers and teachers. Starczamora (talk) 14:34, 19 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep I have reviewed the full Francisco Demetrio article on JSTOR and in my view it is both comprehensive and academically rigorous. Other sources and citations provide support to the accuracy of the citation. This is precisely the kind of article that a good encyclopedia should cover. Applying the same ghit requirements to this article that are applied to every third-rate professional Singaporese soccer player would, seriously, be a travesty. I also raise a metaphorical eyebrow at the nom.'s concern about "lack of coverage ... independent of the subject". For my money, if this is not independent of the the subject then hallelujah brothers, God does exist and he really is a Wikipedian... Debate   木  15:13, 19 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.