Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Environmental job


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to Green job. The question here appears to hinge mainly on whether this is a) sufficiently distinct from green job (the concern noted by the nominator) as concern has been raised that sources tend to treat them as overlapping if not identical and b) whether it's a WP:SYNTH of disparate concepts prohibited by Wikipedia policy (Rorshacma's argument), each of which may have supporting sources but shouldn't be handled in one article. The redirect/merge arguments variously argue that a) and/or b) aren't met; it seems like there is nobody advocating wholesale deletion. As for the keep arguments, one explicitly says it's based on personal opinion and the other two are mentioning sources but it's not clear that they address the concerns raised by the merge/redirect arguments - "a definition for the term 'environmental job' does not exist from a RS as required by Wikipedia policy" is an argument in favour of removing an article not for keeping it, and "it isn't a defined topic" can certainly be taken as an argument based on the WP:SYNTH policy which is alluded to under WP:DEL-REASON as a deletion reason. And the merge camp has raised legitimate arguments that sources using the term "environmental job" does not necessarily establish that it is a coherent topic and distinct enough from Green job to merit its own article.

On balance, it seems like the consensus is that the topic here is not coherent enough and not distinct enough from Green job to have its own article, so a merge is warranted, with careful consideration of which content can be merged over. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 15:34, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Environmental job

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An unneeded fork of Green job with no evidence that the term "Environmental job" is in any way notable. The listings are arbitrary and the sources do not link the careers described back to the term Environmental job.  Velella  Velella Talk 09:30, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Environment-related deletion discussions.  Velella  Velella Talk  09:30, 6 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep/merge The topic is certainly notable as entire books are written about it. Whether it's exactly the same as green jobs is a matter of ordinary editing, not deletion, per WP:IMPERFECT and WP:REDUNDANTFORK. Andrew D. (talk) 13:33, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep In my opinion an Environmental job is different to a green job. A green job suggests the job is in a sector dealing with sustainable energy. An environmental job however does incorporate fossil fuel industries such as Fracking. Seasider91 (talk) 15:44, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
 * That's not entirely true, though, based on our own article on Green Jobs, which cites several organizations' definitions of green jobs, which include a wide range of jobs that have to do with other industries that are unrelated to sustainable energy. Most sources I've found, including the one or two non-job posting sources in this article, use the term "green job" to refer to many non-energy related fields. Rorshacma (talk) 15:57, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment may I also add that part of my reasoning for nominating this is that I was unable to find a RS for the title "Environmental job" except in a most informal use, as in banner headlines in the popular press. For this to be notable, the subject needs to be notable in itself, and there needs to be notability about what is included in such a list. So we also need RSs saying "such and such a job is an Environmental job". Without this, the inclusion of any job title is a matter of opinion. This is clearly already evident from the current state of the article. So........I accept that the term is used, especially informally but to satisfy Wikipedia'a notability criteris I could not find RSs for either the title or the contents.  Velella  Velella Talk 10:26, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for your assistance. Cheeka19 (talk) 07:39, 8 August 2019 (UTC) Cheeka19
 * Redirect to Green job. The vast majority of the references being used here not actually valid reliable sources, as they largely consist of job listings or job descriptions.  In addition, this whole article is largely composed of WP:SYNTH.  As the nom stated, very few of the sources actually refer to the jobs as "environmental jobs" outside of reference number 4, and the creator just took sources on a bunch of individual jobs and tried to combine them into one concept that those sources do not actually support.  That said, it does appear that "environmental job" is used as a synonym for "green job" occasionally, so redirecting this to the better article as a plausible search term makes sense.  Rorshacma (talk) 15:47, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Merge/redirect I don't think simple descriptions of various occupations makes for a very good encyclopedia article; green job could certainly cover some of this since it could use more context of examples of green jobs. Otherwise this is largely synthesis. Reywas92Talk 19:33, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Redirect with possible some material merged. This is not a defined topic by itself.  DGG ( talk ) 23:08, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep
 * The topic is notable. For example there have been books devoted to the topic The Complete Guide to Environmental Careers in the 21st Century, The ECO Guide to Careers that Make a Difference, Green Careers: Choosing Work for a Sustainable Future. Also in reports such as those produced by Universities The Guide To Environmental Careers In Australia and Research Organisations Careers In The Environment the concepts of environmental jobs and environmental job titles are cited.
 * Reliable Sources (RS) were originally used in the form of Australia Government Websites Australian Government Job Outlook, US Government websites The Bureau of Labor Statistics. Also, well-respected print and news organisations such as National Geographic and CNBC and reports such as those produced by Universities The Guide To Environmental Careers In Australia To further address the point raised about RS more sources have been (and will continue to be added by COB on 16 August 2019) added in the form of descriptions of job titles from Universities, for example, The University of Queensland and The University of Melbourne
 * To address the point that a list is not appropriate for an encyclopedic article almost half of the example job titles do contain extra information about these environmental jobs and as per the promise to provide more RS information I will furnish the rest of these 'common environmental job titles' (quoting GCA listed above) with additional information
 * To address the point raised of the sources not being reliable sources because they are traced to jobs. No actual job listings have been used, but some job website's definitions of different accepted environmental job titles (as defined by the RS's listed above). This has been done because of their function, these organisations understand exactly what environmental function these individuals perform (or will perform) in these organisations and therefore, even though their organisations are commercial in nature they do undertake invaluable research into these areas. An example of such research is this generic salary guide Australia Salary Guide 2019
 * To address the point raised wrt 'it is not defined topic' - this isn't referred to in Wikipedia's deletion policy and therefore I can try to surmise that it refers to notability which I have addressed above
 * Regarding the point raised that 'very few of the sources refer to actual environmental jobs' one of the sources used Environmental Sustainability Jobs does provide the reader with numerous examples of environmental job titles so they can answer the question 'what kind of environmental jobs are there' This information itself refers back to numerous environmental job titles. More RS have been added to the article on 8 August 2019 RMIT research and GCA research ((cited above))
 * Regarding the point 'simple descriptions of various occupations doesn't make for a very good encyclopedia article' this system is also used in the superb Green Job (an Article which I have recently added to for the benefit of the Wikipedia readers). In this article, for example, different countries environmental economies are summarised and different US administration policies are summarised. Detailing out what different common job titles would mean day-to-day for the reader if they chose that occupation (or for someone wanting to learn more about what differing occupations do) is in the same vein and providing invaluable knowledge on a topic which is notable and has reliable sources and information.
 * I apologise it will take me a week to provide extra information, I am an environmentalist and I spend the majority of my time doing volunteer work. Next week is a busy one for weed volunteer work, hence the delay in providing more information in order to ensure this meets the wishes of the well-respected editors.
 * Keep
 * Thank you Velella and everyone else for helping me with this article. I have now added 20+ RS in the form of
 * news articles,
 * journals and
 * books to complement the already included reliable sources from
 * government publications,
 * government websites and
 * university publications which are listed on career information websites.
 * Regarding the merge suggestions
 * I chose to do a separate article in this area rather than edit the Green job article page (as I have already done on the Green job page with some more recent statistics) for a number of reasons:
 * 1) The Green job page has a reliable source for the definition of a 'green job'. However, a definition for the term 'environmental job' does not exist from a RS as required by Wikipedia policy
 * 2) The Green job page focuses more on 'macro' aspects of the green / environmental job market in terms of what different countries have strengths in and a description of current and historical policy in the United States
 * 3) I felt an article more focused on some of the more common / fastest growing environmental jobs throughout the world would be really useful to those considering a career in the environmental industry and would enable people considering what environmental jobs are possible to undertake some invaluable learning in this area
 * 4) Internal linking is recommended in Wikipedia and I felt things would be clearer not combining a 'micro' based career article regarding what different environmental professionals do day-to-day witn a macro based article focused on countries and policy as a whole.
 * 5) Thanks again to everyone for your assistance
 * I sincerely hope you choose to Keep this article as there isn't currently anything on Wikipedia with this particular information, on this notable topic, with the requested reliable sources, that will enable readers to learn about what different environmental jobs exist.


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.