Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Euclid D. Farnham


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Allowing for the canvassings, the consensus of uncanvased editors is that this should be deleted. The arguments of notyability are mostly by assertion which is not compelling. The most substantive comment for keep was that from mickmaguire which was very early on in the debate but not compelling for the independant editors coming along later. Spartaz Humbug! 14:47, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Euclid D. Farnham

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Minor author and actor without significant coverage. Yes, there are a few references, but they're not independent, trivial, and local respectively. We need much more coverage than this man has gotten to establish notability. Nyttend (talk) 21:37, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Weak keep - the article asserts notability, and his public service is of a level high enough to be formally recognised by a government body through a medal awarded (as far as I can tell) to a half dozen people in Orange County, Vermont every five years. Combined with his otherwise non-notable acting work and writing and the fact the page is neither defamatory nor obviously self-promotional, I'm inclined to keep it per WP:NOTHING and WP:NOTPAPER. - DustFormsWords (talk) 22:56, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
 * How does he actually pass WP:BIO? Assertions only suffice to keep an article from speedy deletion, and he's not received sustained coverage nor a notable award: and there's no evidence that he does anything to pass WP:BIO.  Nyttend (talk) 03:06, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm asserting that the Vermont Public Service Award arguably is a notable award; that is to say, it's not obviously non-notable and Google searches turn up plenty of indpendent mention of it. It's borderline, hence "weak" keep. - DustFormsWords (talk) 04:53, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Do you propose that all recipients of this award pass WP:BIO? Not all recipients of all notable awards are notable: the Purple Heart is a notable award, but not all recipients are notable.  The point of the criterion is for major awards, not ones awarded (comparatively) en masse, such as this.  Nyttend (talk) 18:01, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Receiving the award creates a presumption of notability and I see no strong reasno to erbut it. - DustFormsWords (talk) 22:01, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep As the originator of the article it might be claimed I am biased - however I am (obviously) in the keep camp. If you lived in VT or NH you would likely have heard of Euclid, he is an extremely well known historian and personality as well as an authority on VT in the Civil War. The article on him is merely a stub. In addition to the two books he has in print a third reference work is currently being prepared. What drove me to put the article in in the first place was the continual removal of him from the notable persons on the Tunbridge VT page, even though multiple editors had tried to reinstate him. I thought this might give people who live half way across the country more of a reference for why people in VT and NH keep trying to add him. Though I think he is indeed notable enough to have his own article, my grounds being: He meets the WP:Bio basic standard of " been the subject of published secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject." He meets "he person has received a notable award or honor, or has been often nominated for one." He has "Has had significant roles in multiple notable films, television shows, stage performances, or other productions." If the editors decide against this case and the article is killed I move he should be left on the notable people. I would also call reviewers attention to the other notables on the same page for comparison such as John O'Brien - if Euclid doesn't pass muster then some of those wont either (and yes I know this isn't the point ). Tunbridge is a tiny town (less than 2k inhabitants) and not very much goes on there - in that light Euclid is extremely notable. As an aside and for full disclosure I was one of those who originally removed the reference to him but my opinion on him has changed after reading more of his work and understanding more about him.Mickmaguire (talk) 15:58, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep He's certainly notable within Vermont and is a living connection to Vermont history and culture. Since Vermont as a whole is a National Trust site, I think that stands for something. I have read about Euclid in connection with the Tunbridge Fair and his books, but I didn't realized that he was in the O'Brien films. Sounds like a keeper to me.H0n0r (talk) 17:15, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * How does this count for Wikipedia notability? Nyttend (talk) 18:01, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment Given that Wikipedia notability is also conveyed purely by virtue of being Playboy Playmate, I think you're just arguing semantics. There's sufficient evidence to show that Mr. Farnham is a notable enough figure for at least a stub -- and he is far more important a personality, in the real-world terms of lasting and memorable contribution, than your average centerfold. Bruorton (talk) 18:15, 23 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep as one of the more notable small dairy farmers, a threatened occupation. Jc3s5h (talk) 17:41, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Do you propose that all dairy farmers have articles? Nyttend (talk) 18:01, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it is appropriate to have a few articles about members of any threatened occupation, and that Farnham is one of the more notable members of this particular threatened occupation. Jc3s5h (talk) 18:29, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Weak Keep. Has been in actual films, however modest their following.Student7 (talk) 18:26, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep When Euclid announced his retirement as president of the Union Agriculture Society last year many local newspapers, including the Rutland Herald, ran articles on his long service to the Tunbridge Fair and the community at large. He was interviewed on a few radio stations as well.  When his retirement was announced it was the talk of area towns for a a long time.  As the newspaper articles about him attest, he practically single-handedly saved the Tunbridge Fair, and by doing so it could be said he saved the town of Tunbridge.  Not just because of the influx of tourists and money to the town, but because the Fair is a huge part of the culture of the town.  And that is just his role as president of the UAS for 30 years.  As Mickmaguire mentioned, he has also been the town's moderator for 28 years.  He was the Tunbridge Church's treasurer for as many years.  He is the president of the Tunbridge Historical Society.  He is an author and an actor.  Seems notable to me.   Rickscully (talk)  12:25, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep Notability asserted through print media articles and awards. Article maybe needs to be rewritten as less of a flat bio and more "why is this person notable" off the bat, but I think it meets the letter and the spirit of Wikipedia notability Jessamyn (talk) 13:24, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete I really want to see what counts as notability outside the local area. I see no evidence that he is the most notable small dairy farmer in Vermont, just perhaps one of the more notable ones in one Vermont County. An executive officer for a local fair and a small town, neither of them shows notability. The first step would probably be trying to write an article on the fair, which, if you really trust the local publicity for it, might just conceivably be notable. The other arguments used would get us an article on every dairy farmer in  the state.    DGG ( talk ) 00:55, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - See WP:NLI; the fact he's only of interest to a small population does not make him un-notable providing the necessary sources exist. Of course, whether the sources exist is a separate argument. - DustFormsWords (talk) 04:00, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment The Fair really should have it's own page; it is now considered one of the major fairs of northern New England, and it was prominently featured in photographs in National Geographic's Oct. 1997 article on fairs. I agree that this would also lend Wikipedia-type notability to Euclid as the primary architect of its modern incarnation. Bruorton (talk) 18:09, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment I started a little article on the fair and would love some help adding to it with respect to Euclid, and any other information you might have. H0n0r (talk) 01:10, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment: The creator of this article asked 6 people to come here: 4 have come & voted keep; 2 have not yet come      DGG ( talk ) 01:18, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - Local perspective would really help this debate and I'd really appreciate seeing views of those who know of the fellow. On the other hand, new contributors should be aware AfD discussions are not a vote but a discussion (and I've added the appropriate template at the top accordingly). - DustFormsWords (talk) 02:21, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment Local perspective is exactly why I asked a few active Wikipedians who are involved with Project Vermont to come along and weigh in. Note I did point out I was not asking them to vote either way, just to add to the debate. Almost all are people I have never met outside of Wikipedia Mickmaguire (talk) 14:14, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing notability here. The movies he's appeared in are either red links or his name doesn't appear in the article.  The Vermont award for town officials he received was given to over 100 people in Orange County (which has a population of less than 30,000 according to the 2000 census) in 2000 and 46 in 2005.  Therefore, this award doesn't seem notabile to me.  I don't doubt he's been a valuable member of his community, but I'm not seeing anything that passes GNG. Papaursa (talk) 02:50, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Check http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0113758/fullcredits#cast if you question whether Farnham actually appeared in Man with a Plan. Better still, go rent it; sources need not be on line. --Jc3s5h (talk) 03:09, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd add watch Vermont is for Lovers too as he has a much more major part in that one, being a key character in the story. Mickmaguire (talk) 14:17, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment I'm not saying he wasn't in the movie, I'm still questioning notability. Being in a movie doesn't make you notable--I've been in a martial arts movie but wouldn't claim notability from it.  The entertainment criteria says "Has had significant roles in multiple notable films" and I don't see that.  The town officials award, given the frequency it's given out, doesn't strike me as particularly notable either.Papaursa (talk) 17:34, 22 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep As a life-long Vermont resident, I can attest that Euclid is indeed considered notable throughout the region, including much of VT and NH. It is in fact absurd that the debate should be whether his acting or his awards merit sufficient notability, although I understand that stems from the notability criteria.  This seems, in part, a conflict of media.  Wikipedia must depend on external sources for credibility, but Euclid's most significant accomplishments include turning the Tunbridge Fair into one of New England's half-dozen most significant fairs and being one of the only collectors of a vast amount of Vermont history, especially Civil War correspondences and oral history about its transformations over the last century.  Neither of these are documented per se, and yet he is widely known in the region, he is a walking repository of knowledge gathered and known by no one else, and he is likely the leading expert in these fields of Vermont history.  That said, although there are naturally far fewer online sources to show this than those in print or in person (round up a random group of prominent Civil War historians, for instance, and see how many know him) the sources which are available, as Jessamyn noted, are entirely sufficient. Bruorton (talk) 18:04, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * You stated my problem--"neither of these are documented". The references in the article show him as M.C. at a Vermont Civil War event, quoted on covered bridges, stepping down as president of the Tunbridge World Fair, and as recipient of a pretty common award.  His book on the world's fair has an Amazon rank below 2,500,000.  I'm not asking for online documentation, just some documentation of his notability beyond being a local celebrity.  Sorry, but rounding up a "random group of prominent Civil War historians" is beyond me.  If he's a prominent historian there should be some record of that--writings, citations by other historians, etc.  He seems like an interesting guy and I'd be happy to see him stay if you could provide some documentation.Papaursa (talk) 00:34, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.