Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ewen Macdonald


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   incubate to Article Incubator/Murder of Scott Guy. There is consensus that the event is notable, but the person is not. Letting the article remain in mainspace under a different title would likely run afoul of WP:BLP, so incubating until it is properly rewritten to be an article about the event. King of &hearts;   &diams;   &clubs;  &spades; 11:02, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Ewen Macdonald

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Non-notable murderer, there's nothing here that rises above a normal murder case -- fails WP:PERP. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 08:14, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 08:16, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of New Zealand-related deletion discussions. gadfium 08:26, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Keep: It clearly meets WP:PERP which says an article is notable when "The execution of the crime is unusual—or has otherwise been considered noteworthy—such that it is a well-documented historic event." This was one of the most widely covered investigations and trials in New Zealand history and Macdonald's offending was very unusual; it included midnight "revenge missions" which involved killing calves with a hammer and deliberately wasting $18,000 worth of milk. The case led to calls for a change in the right to silence - the law which enabled the judge to keep information about his previous offending from the jury. It was also notable because it raised the profile of Greg King making him New Zealand's most successful defence lawyer - and may have contributed to King's suicide two months later.

It is also notable because even though Macdonald was found not guilty, the police refused to look for anyone else indicating they believe the jury got it wrong. Offender9000 (talk) 09:09, 3 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete. In reply to the above, WP:PERP doesn't apply.  WP:PERP applies to victims, criminals, and prominent people who are wrongly convicted.  WP:PERP doesn't justify creating an article for people who were found not guilty.  And Wikipedia isn't supposed to second-guess the outcome of the trial and say "they were found not guilty, but the police are treating it as guilty".  Furthermore, WP:BLPCRIME discourages making articles for people who are accused but not convicted.  If the murder is notable, create a separate article about the murder. Ken Arromdee (talk) 14:36, 3 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete as per WP:1E. Note that he was found not guilty. Also the ref for the suicide of King doesn't mention suicide. Stuartyeates (talk) 09:13, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
 * WP:1E does not apply as he committed a number of crimes which made him notable. He was found guitly of six different offences. The fact that he was found not guilty of murder does alter the extraordinary news coverage which made the case notable.Offender9000 (talk) 09:19, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
 * None of those offenses, not even all taken together, make someone notable, so BLP1E applies as stated. --Randykitty (talk) 19:20, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

He shot himself but I have removed the comment.Offender9000 (talk) 09:42, 3 May 2013 (UTC) Comment: he was found not guilty of the murder but guilty of six other offences and sent to prison for five years - so BLP1E does not apply. Offender9000 (talk) 18:57, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: In the current article and in the comment above Offender9000 refers to King's death as a suicide. I'm not seeing any references for this. Unless we have a solid reference, we shouldn't be saying this. Stuartyeates (talk) 09:30, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete Person was not even convicted, so this is certainly a serious BLP issue. Whatever anybody may suspect, it is not for Wikipedia to solve a crime. Whether or not King committed suicide has nothing to do with the article either, which is another BLP issue (BLP also applies to recently deceased persons; this issue could easily be handled, though, as King's death should just be removed from the article). In any case, even if Macdonald were convicted, BLP1E would still apply. But without a conviction, this is a slam dunk delete as far as I can see. --Randykitty (talk) 10:01, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete Splendid example of BLP1E AFAICT -- the charge about "killing calves" is obviously not a ground for notability, to be sure. Wikipedia is not the place to "right wrongs" by making such an article. Collect (talk) 11:27, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: BLP1E AFAICT does not exist on Wikipedia.Offender9000 (talk) 19:01, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
 * "AFAICT" = "As far as I can tell"... --Randykitty (talk) 19:20, 3 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Rename to Murder of Scott Guy per usual policy for naming articles about notable crimes. It's a very controversial and widely-discussed case in New Zealand, as can easily be seen from the press coverage. --Colapeninsula (talk) 12:53, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 13:30, 3 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Move To Murder of Scott Guy, per Colapeninsula. I agree that as a bio this is a clear WP:BLP1E, but as an event it certainly seems to meet WP:GNG given the sources in the article. § FreeRangeFrog croak 17:47, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Move as per the two comments above. I agree that Macdonald is not an appropriate subject for an article, but the murder case was one of the more prominent and controversial in recent New Zealand history.- gadfium 22:37, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Move I agree the case featured prominently in print media, TV and talkback radio. JaggerAgain (talk) 23:43, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete without prejudice to a different article being created (preferably at Murder of Scott Guy) to deal with this matter. The article as it stands is a massive BLP violation, leading the casual reader to believe that the named person was the murderer when in reality he was acquitted of that crime. Daveosaurus (talk) 06:51, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Rename as Murder of Scott Guy. This was one of the most prominent murder cases ever in New Zealand. The whole country seemed to take an interest in it. Cleverdickie (talk) 20:56, 11 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Incubate then rename and rework the page as Murder of Scott Guy. WP:BLP1E certainly applies to the current subject. This is a major BLP violation and needs to be moved out of main-space and not moved back in until all issues have been resolved. J04n(talk page) 11:10, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.