Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ewen McGowen Green


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was    No Consensus to delete. Eluchil404 (talk) 07:44, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Ewen McGowen Green

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Doesn't seem very notable. One (shared) national title, ranked below 2000 in the world. One Only a couple of non-wiki google hits, no apparent media coverage. dramatic (talk) 21:45, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of New Zealand-related deletion discussions.  dramatic (talk) 21:45, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Weak delete. The one reasonable mention I found for him on google was, others just say he's a chess coach. While his article says he was joint champion in 1987, New Zealand Chess Championship says it was 1979/80, and the references back up the NZCC article. Having been joint national champion gives him some notability, but not quite enough.- gadfium 22:13, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep. As an Olympiad contestant and FIDE Master I think we should keep as being notable in his field. JodyBtalk 22:18, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment - the AA Directions article is one I'd consider to be a passing reference - it tells us nothing about Green other than that he is a professional coach. I agree wholeheartedly that he looks like one of the most notable chess players in New Zealand (top 5?), but that doesn't help with the problem that chess seems to suffer from systemic bias in the media - no one writes about it beyond the chess community. give a few basic facts, but not much to base an article on, and  appears to lack independence. dramatic (talk) 23:06, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep. He is notable as a FIDE Master, and being the New Zealand Chess champion in 1987. This makes him notable enough for an article. Malinaccier (talk) 00:25, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep. He was a chess champion (read top of his field WP:ATHLETE). The fact he was joined champion doesn't lessen his notability at all. Because of the points system in chess, such an occurance is quite likely. It still makes him the best in a national tournament. His FIDE Master status is a bonus.- Mgm|(talk) 08:51, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment - This page NZCF titles gives current and past titles by NZ Players and NZ champs. The article Roger I. Nokes also exists pretty much only because he is a former joint NZ chess champ so if that is sufficient notability then he probably qualifies also. - SimonLyall (talk) 10:43, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Abstain - Acquaintance (via chess) - SimonLyall (talk) 10:43, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Living people-related deletion discussions. --Erwin85Bot (talk) 00:01, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete The consensus (from my understanding) at WikiProject Chess is that the title FIDE Master is not high enough to confer automatic notability. He does not seem to be notable as a chess coach (i.e. has not trained a high-profile chess champion). And thousands of chess players participate in the Chess Olympiads every four years. SyG (talk) 10:02, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete for the reasons given by SyG. We have deleted Charles Weldon and Boris Baczynskyj as non-notable, and both were FIDE Masters with, as I recall, higher ratings than this guy. His peak rating was only 2265, which is extremely marginal even for a FIDE Master, since current regulations require a rating of at least 2300. The national co-champion thing is nice, but let's face it, NZ is a tiny country (population 4.3 million) with far more sheep than humans, and not exactly a chess powerhouse. The consensus among members of WikiProject Chess, as I understand it, is that not even players with the higher International Master title are, without more, necessarily notable. A FIDE Master without substantial additional achievements (for example, writing a lot of chess books, or perhaps being a perennial national champion) is certainly not notable. Krakatoa (talk) 07:22, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep, though a bit weakly. In general, an FM title is insufficient for notability, while IM title might be borderline, yet I feel that national champions have made a sufficient claim for notability since that means you are the number one in that country. I understand the concern that New Zealand is a small country, and that people from such countries might be favored in terms of notability, but still, I don't think NZ's top tournament can be described as weak. I paused a bit because I note that Green shared that championship with two other people that year (many other countries arrange play-offs between those tying for first place, or use a tie-break score), but still I feel that "co-champion" is closer to "champion" than "not a champion". That Green won the championship is verifiable from more than the ChessGames.com forum, see e.g. . Coverage on the Internet seems rather thin, but that has more to do with his championship being in 1979-1980, and the best sources are probably on paper, on the opposite side of the globe from where I sit. Participation in the Olympiad also contributes to notability, although I agree it's probably not sufficient. If we use the WP:ATHLETE guideline (which is not an exact match, but fairly close to chess players), we have "People who have competed at the highest amateur level of a sport, usually considered to mean the Olympic Games or World Championships," and the Olympiad is the top level of team chess (though NZ is hardly the top team in that event). I feel that the national co-championship (mainly), and participation in the Olympiad (slightly) sum up to Green passing notability, barely. Sjakkalle (Check!)  10:44, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment If New Zealand has less inhabitants than Jinan, why should the chess champion of New Zealand be notable and the chess champion of Jinan not be ? Is the chess champion of Monaco, a small state with about 32,000 inhabitants, notable ? :-) SyG (talk) 11:19, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It's a reasonable question, and one which does not have a fully logical answer. It has to do with that a national level championship has more glory, and more stature, than a regional level championship, even if the region is larger than the nation. I would think that the reason is similar to why New Zealand sends a team to the Olympiad, while Jinan doesn't. Sjakkalle (Check!)  11:25, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment: Remember that no guideline from a Wikiproject overrides the general notability criteria. In other words, if there were multiple neutral people who had written about Green in depth and published in reliable sources, he'd be notable regardless of the scale of achievement. That's what is lacking in this case. Also, a question: The FIDE rating appears to be for the end of his competitive career, with the possibility that it was higher prior to 2000. Is the 2000 cut-off on the website simply because that's how far back the website goes, or because that is when the rating system was introduced? dramatic (talk) 23:38, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Response: My comment on his peak rating was in error. As you suggested, the website evidently only lists ratings as far back as 2000. I just looked at the January 1979 FIDE Rating List (Chess Informant, Volume 26, p. 299), which lists "Green E." from NZ, who I assume is our man, with a rating of 2320. I picked out that volume fairly randomly; his peak was probably higher. Krakatoa (talk) 04:59, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Further Response: I have looked at the FIDE rating lists given in Chess Informant from July 1971 (Informant 12; Green not listed) through July 1996 (Informant 66; Green not listed, probably because of inactivity). July 1996 was apparently the last FIDE Rating List that Chess Informant published. Green was first listed on the January 1, 1977 rating list, with a rating of 2265 (Informant 22, p. 325). He is last listed (during this period) on the January 1991 list, with a rating of 2290 (Informant 50, p. 393). His highest rating was 2335 on the January 1, 1981 rating list (Informant 30, p. 311). He was evidently inactive for much of this period, as evidenced by his rating remaining the same for long periods and eventually being deleted because of inactivity. It is possible, though unlikely, that he achieved a higher rating than 2335 at some point between July 1996 and 2000, the beginning point for the FIDE website that I cited earlier. I continue to adhere to my view that this article should be deleted on grounds of non-notability. A peak 2335 rating (well below the 2400 threshold for International Master is fairly commonplace, and in my opinion one joint national championship of a tiny country doesn't push Green into "Notable" territory. If he were a many-time NZ national champion, like International Master Ortvin Sarapu, my vote would be different.
 * Note, incidentally, that NZ, with a population of 4.28 million, is less populous than half of the states in the United States. If Green is notable by virtue of his one-time NZ co-championship, then presumably every single person who has ever been champion or co-champion of any of those states is also notable. Krakatoa (talk) 16:24, 15 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.