Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Execution of 42 policemen in Achaia (Greece, 1944)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. The challenge here is that there is "absolutely no available reliable secondary source". This is easily countered by producing, say, three suitable sources (1, 2, 3) in this discussion. That hasn’t happened. Rather we have wide agreement that no reliable sources exist and the result is thus original research. Malcolmxl5 (talk) 17:06, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Execution of 42 policemen in Achaia (Greece, 1944)

 * – ( View AfD View log )

An article which has absolutely no available reliable secondary source, was deleted in the greek wiki, and was recreated by user skylax30 because he thinks that it was deleted by "communist administrators" of the Greek wikiΙπποκράτης2020 (talk) 12:20, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * "recreated" where?--Skylax30 (talk) 11:26, 22 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 12:26, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Greece-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 12:26, 15 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Articles for deletion/Log/2021 September 15.  —cyberbot I   Talk to my owner :Online 12:46, 15 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete. Fails WP:GNC. The theme lacks notability. Not enough WP:RS dig on the specific issue. The article was deleted from greek WP and it seems that the fuss is being imported in en.WP as well. (See page in greek, admin says decision to delete is due to Original Research and lack of RS) Anywayz... there is a clear lack of notability so delete.   Cinadon36 12:57, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 13:17, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The execution of 42 people is not a notable event. This is an interesting opinion. Let's see if is based on any WP principle.--Skylax30 (talk) 10:07, 17 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete. A case of WP:OR and biased sources. Essentially a cross wiki POV fork.--Catlemur (talk) 14:29, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete due to the lack of unbiased, reliable sources. Gildir (talk) 09:10, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
 * 1)Did you actually read all the sources? You know Greek?
 * 2) Do you know the rules about RS? A RS can be very biased. Cheers.--Skylax30 (talk) 10:01, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I admit that I didn't read the sources, but I did read most of the extremely long, fascinating deletion discussion on Greek Wikipedia, which Microsoft Edge translated for me. I have the strong impression that the existing sources are not sufficient to untangle what really happened and understand the degree and manner in which the reliable sources are biased, or the biased sources are reliable. Gildir (talk) 10:17, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
 * In which case you don't "discuss" but you recycle here other users' opinion.--Skylax30 (talk) 16:54, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
 * To be fair, non-greek speakers are not expected to read greek sources, although they can request here translation of crucial paragraphs. Still, they can discuss some of the following questions:

A magazine published by the Greek Police in 1950's and beyond, refers to this massacre in 2 or 3 articles, publishing photos and names of the victims. Some articles are philological, some are like a chronicle. At the same time, nobody claimed that those people did not exist, or were not executed. Contrary, some modern authors (even if not top academicians) refer to this event as a fact, examining it from various views, e.g. the political significance of monuments. Two or 3 monuments do exist, including one in a public cemetery. Are the above a good reason to accept that the execution did happen? If yes, is the massive execution of 42 captive people by a formation calling themselves an "army" a notable event or is just statistcs? If it is notable, do we have to wait until an author provides further details on that? Are all WP articles about details? --Skylax30 (talk) 17:15, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete Let me briefly repeat myself in English since I wrote these things in Greek in the discussion on the deletion of this article a few weeks ago @ el/WP. There are no reliable sources on the subject in order to write an encyclopedic article that it won't be WP:OR neither on the purely factual aspect of what really happened, nor from the public history point of view. The recreation in English of the deleted Greek article by user right after its deletion @ el/WP probably falls under the category of a sui-generis cross-wiki spamming and the instrumentalization of WP.  ǁ ǁǁ ǁ Chalk19 (talk) 18:28, 17 September 2021 (UTC)


 * May we know the rule about this "sui-generis cross-wiki spamming", in other words, a rule stipulating that if an article is deleted in one language, cannot exist in others.? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Skylax30 (talk • contribs) 19:15, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
 * First of all, if you want others to respond to your questions addressed to them you have to notify them. Second, there follows my reply. The "timing" of the article creation leaves no room for doubt that is was a counterbalance to the deletion of the Greek article. Because the users at el/WP didn't share your views on keeping the article, you decided as a reaction to its deletion to have it recreated in another language in another WP. That I call instrumentalization of WP and to me it's an unacceptable form of spamming. ǁ ǁǁ ǁ Chalk19 (talk) 20:21, 17 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Chalk19 I didn't ask about you home-made rules. I asked for the wp rule prohibiting the creation of an article in english (for a putative audience of 5 billion readers) if it has previously been deleted in another language. If you cannot point to that rule, you cannot advance this discussion.--Skylax30 (talk) 16:28, 18 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep. The sources are clear and credible, especially the Greek Police magazine. Several governments and policies have changed since those publications, and nobody denied the fact. The public monument with the Greek flag and the insignia of the Police still exists in the public cemetery of Patras, permanently recognizing the event. The number of the victims makes the event notable (at least according to my moral judgment), even if it is being denied publicity for the sake of reconciliation policies.--Skylax30 (talk) 16:47, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Skylax30 What are the "reconciliation policies" you are talking about? Nobody denied the event. We simply stated that an article based only in biased primary sources, originating from an anti-communist state agency , cannot fullfill the criteria of WP:RS. Thinking that the Greek Police Mazagine in the 50s and 60s when the CPG was illegal ,is anti-communist  its a fact , not an opinion. Imaging writing an article  on the Communist party of Greece , and using solely the newspaper of the CPG, ριζοσπάστης rom. rizospastis , radical . Clear lack of Notability from Secondary sources, the only as of yet available secondary source, mentions the event as a battle not as a mass execution site (p. 63 in the linked document, ctrl-f and type in Μάχη του Σουλιναρίου for non-Greek users).  For the  reasons mentioned above , I  support the deletion of the article. Ιπποκράτης2020 (talk) 08:27, 19 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Thank you, for verifying that nobody denies the event. So, we have an event of massive execution of captives, and the basic source is "unreliable" in your opinion, because it was published by the Greek Police in 1950's. Right? Where exactly the unreliability lies? In the number of victims, in the exact circumstances, or what?--Skylax30 (talk) 11:41, 22 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Just to clarify, to establish notability, sources have to be indepented. Indepentend but Reliable and Biased sources are acceptable sources that establish notability. Greek Police magazine is not independent, is not known as a reliable source, and is super biased. We need better sources that a police magazine. There is not even one credible source digging on the specific event. Cinadon36 08:42, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, thats what everyone has been saying. Ιπποκράτης2020 (talk) 08:52, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

For those who don't know the rules: "However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject".. Thanks for not perpetuating this pointless discussion across the wp, which is equal to spaming.--Skylax30 (talk) 09:00, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
 * So, you insist on keeping an article which was deleted for the reasons mentioned above in the Greek Wiki, which is based on propaganda sources, in order to push your POV, yet you claim that all the contributors here are spamming? Sounds like vandalism to me. Ιπποκράτης2020 (talk) 10:21, 19 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Yes, and I have to add some about the deletion of the Greek article. The user/administrator who deleted the greek article user:Kalogeropoulos just today deleted the greek translation of the article Russian political jokes few hours after I published in the Greek WP, arbitrarily, without any discussion. He is a known advocate (see WP:ADVOCACY) of communism by authoring articles in the communist internet site (greek) https://atexnos.gr (search for Kostas Kalogeropoulos). He is involved in a team who declares that they pursue the "dictatorship of the proletariat" and the rest. Normally, and according to WP rules he should declare that, and abstain from administrative acts on articles related to communism, greek civil war etc.--Skylax30 (talk) 14:34, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Skylax30 you cannot secure consensus with lies and this is either misunderstanding, either obvious lie-Kalogeropoulos (talk) 19:03, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Did you actually author article(s)on EAM-ELAS or not?--Skylax30 (talk) 11:46, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The article "Russian political jokes" is badly sourced as well and, according to the template, it involves original research . Why should an article like that be translated in the Greek Wiki?
 * The comment ' user/administrator who deleted the greek article.[...] to communism, greek civil war etc. is an attempt to try to win over consensus by pushing again your conspiracy of a communist controlled Greek Wikipedia. With that being said, by googling the words that you maintioned in the Webpage "ατέχνως" I viewed absolutely no results for "Kostas kalogeropoulos" as an author. Please provide a citation for this claim.
 * The problems with the article still remain. Even if whats you said is absolutely true, how can an article be maintained with 0 reliable secondary sources?  The problems still persist that EVERYTHING in this article is a mix of primary sources and original research.Ιπποκράτης2020 (talk) 15:15, 19 September 2021 (UTC)


 * delete. Instrumentalization of WP and I agree with Catlemur-Kalogeropoulos (talk) 18:50, 19 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Of course you agree, but here at least you can discuss it. The automatic deletion from the Greek WP of an article existing in the English WP for more than 13 years, is very characteristic of what is happening in the former, when articles are about communism. At least you could bring the article for discussion.

In the Gr. WP you said that you are not the Kostas Kalogeropoulos of atexnos.gr and I am "a liar". I take the "rufian" as a compliment, since you constantly state in a WP page that "all Greeks are rufians" (including yourself?). I was sure that this K.K. is you for certain reasons, and your name is not secret since you participated in the public trial Katsanevas vs. Diu, and was also written in some WP discussions that you have authored articles in various magazins (which you didn't deny). If you honestly declare that I am wrong, the administrators are requested to delete permanently the above info.--Skylax30 (talk) 19:42, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

To all participant, please laser focus on the article, not the user(s). Cinadon<b style="display:inline; color:#c0c0c0;">36</b> 20:14, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete due to lack of WP:GNG sources. Contemporaneous news reports are primary, not secondary, sources. The police magazine is not independent. I can't find any information about the book by Palaeologopoulos Dimitrios, "The Civil War in the prefecture of Kalavryta, 1946-1949" to evaluate its reliability (or existence). If there were WP:THREE good sources, I'd change my mind, but I don't even see one. Levivich 21:04, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Elementary my dear. D. Palaeologos was president of the ex-EAM Resistance Fighters. I wouldn't be surprised if he was personally involved in that event, because he was local. Any other convincing argument? Btw, this wp:three is not a rule. It's an opinion.--Skylax30 (talk) 13:07, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
 * ...meaning the book is also not independent, and primary, and so is not a source that meets GNG. Levivich 13:36, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, and here we encountered one more sinister use of a possible source: The event is not mentioned by Palaologos, therefore it didn't happen or is not notable.--Skylax30 (talk) 11:20, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
 * delete I agree with user Levivich ΔώραΣτρουμπούκη (talk) 01:27, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete The article lacks of reliable sources. I generally agree with most of the users' arguments above. Greek Rebel (talk) 16:04, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The arguments are actually one, against one.--Skylax30 (talk) 11:50, 22 September 2021 (UTC)


 * <small class="delsort-notice">Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Law-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 10:49, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
 * <small class="delsort-notice">Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 10:49, 22 September 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.