Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/FC Arsenal Kiev (1925)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to FC Arsenal Kyiv. The same outcome results if IP opinions are discounted.  Sandstein  21:17, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

FC Arsenal Kiev (1925)

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Fails notability, No reference, External Link is dead Brudder Andrusha (talk) 01:27, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions.  lavender |(formerly HMSSolent )| lambast  01:39, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ukraine-related deletion discussions.  lavender |(formerly HMSSolent )| lambast  01:40, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Redirect to FC Arsenal Kyiv, which it is a duplicate of. matt91486 (talk) 04:43, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Actually FC Arsenal Kyiv has a section "Early history" which covers this article. Wouldn't Merge and Delete be better? Brudder Andrusha (talk) 09:08, 28 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep. Not duplicate. This team existed in 1925-1964, played in the Soviet Cup and the Championship of the Ukrainian SSR. Also winners of the Cup of the Ukrainian SSR (1954, 1955) under the name of FC Mashynobudivnyk Kyiv. Played in the lower divisions (Group B) of the Soviet Championship in 1960s. Disbanded in 1964. The new FC Arsenal Kyiv was created in 2001 and has no any relation to the 1925-1964 team. Dead link is fixed. 178.92.48.71 (talk) 12:33, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose Giving one link from the Arsenal-Kyiv website is not enough which is not an independent source. There are no English links. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 13:27, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Same external link is used for early history in article FC Arsenal Kyiv, hence WP:Duplicates. 192.176.1.95 (talk) 13:42, 28 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete - Already refered to (albeit poorly) in the article FC Arsenal Kyiv. 192.176.1.95 (talk) 13:35, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete - Agreed. As noted already in FC Arsenal Kyiv. WP:REDUNDANTFORK 69.248.91.120 (talk) 02:04, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:43, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:43, 29 July 2015 (UTC)


 * To admins: 192.176.1.95 and 69.248.91.120 are IP of BrudderAndrusha, see their similar contribution. Please strike out his second and third voting. He did try to change links from FC Arsenal-Kyiv (new team) to FC Arsenal Kyiv (old team).  This is a disruptive nomination, see also Talk:FC Arsenal Kyiv. They are all different teams. WP:FOOTY/Notability says: All teams that have played in the national cup (or the national level of the league structure in countries where no cup exists) are assumed to meet WP:N criteria. FC Arsenal Kiev (1925) played in the 1936 Soviet Cup. Therefore, this club is notable enough. 46.200.31.84 (talk) 11:27, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
 * By the way, ru-wiki and uk-wiki have separate articles about this 1925-1964 Arsenal club, see uk:Темп (Київ) and ru:Темп (футбольный клуб, Киев). Name history: 1925-1951 Arsenal, 1951-1959 Mashynobudivnyk, 1959-1964 Arsenal (again), since 1964 Temp (amauters). Maybe rename to FC Temp Kyiv (teams' last name before withdrew)? 46.200.31.84 (talk) 11:52, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
 * There are no independent references that the team competed in the 1930 Soviet Cup. The team completed in the minor leagues. Even more reason to delete the article and merge it into FC Arsenal Kyiv since there are so many variations of the team name. And this is a reason for an article? Brudder Andrusha (talk) 12:01, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
 * There are many independent references about the fact of FC Arsenal Kiev (1925) competed in the first (1936) Soviet Cup:    . Also it played in the 1950s (and 1960s) Soviet Cups. Best result is Last 32 stage in 1959-1960. The team was defunct since 1964, therefore FC Arsenal Kiev (1925) (or Temp, or Mashynobudivnyk) and FC Arsenal Kyiv (created in 2001 by another people, 37 years after!!) are absolutely different teams. No reason for deletion, no reason for merging. 46.200.31.84 (talk) 12:16, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
 * All the references indicate that the different versions of the team have been inherited by FC Arsenal Kyiv. Whoever updated the History of this club FC Arsenal Kiev (1925) is using the same link and historical information for the FC Arsenal Kyiv article which has been around much longer. If that is used as a reliable source for both articles then both teams are the same. Hence delete this article and merge it into FC Arsenal Kyiv. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 12:32, 29 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Merge and redirect to FC Arsenal Kyiv - no reliable sources to confirm this is a separate club. If some can be found, it could be kept (providing it did play in the national cup as claimed). GiantSnowman 17:57, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
 * See five links above about their participation in the 1936 Soviet Cup. Do you want to say, a Soviet team disestablished in 1964 and Ukrainian team created in 2001 are the same club? Club did not exist 37 years. Different players, different people, different champioships. Separate aricles exist in ru-wiki and uk-wiki. This sources  clearly says, in 1964 the club was diseastablished. 46.200.31.84 (talk) 19:06, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Yet the article uses text from the current web's site about its history and links the 1925 from the Logo, with the name FC Arsenal Kyiv. So just because you don't accept that it's the same club - The club is very clear in its history that the team of this article is a continuation of many different variations from 1925 is one in the same. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 23:39, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete - All of the information is duplicated in FC Arsenal Kyiv. 69.118.104.160 (talk) 20:15, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Merge and Delete - Agree with OP and . The sources were nonexistant before the AfD. The source provided is also used in the current club article Arsenal Kyiv. 75.99.139.84 (talk)
 * Keep. Multiple voting of Brudder Andrusha detected. 94.248.11.100 (talk) 21:23, 29 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Analysis of references added after AfD initiated Not surprisingly out of the woodwork edits have been made to prop up the article. Nonetheless the references do not add any conviction that the article should not be deleted.


 * http://www.fc-dynamo.ru/cup/rezult.php?gd=1936 Протоколы кубка 1936 года - In Russian the results of the 1936 Cup. The team name is Арсенал (Киев) translated as Arsenal (Kyiv) which is also claimed by the club FC Arsenal Kyiv as part of their history. Hence WP:DUPLICATE.
 * http://fc-dynamo.ru/cup/prot.php?id=2100 Кубок СССР 1936. 1936 год. 18 июля - 18 June 1936 USSR Cup - Team list of team that played. Reference used is from an article that has also been added since the AfD started used as an External Site reference. That reference dated from 18 January 2011 connects the team that competed in the game with the FC Arsenal Kyiv with the Logo of the Team and the with the statement Но все же в нынешнем своем названии команда появилась уже в советское время — 86 лет назад translated as "Yet in its present team name appeared in the Soviet time - 86 years ago".
 * http://aegov.narod.ru/history/sssr/1936v/36kup.htm 1-й розыгрыш. - 1st Round is duplicate of the first reference
 * http://wildstat.ru/p/2002/ch/URS_CUP_1936/stg/all/tour/all Кубок СССР 1936 - 1936 USSR Cup is duplicate of the first reference
 * http://www.rsssf.com/tabless/su36.html#36c Soviet Union Cup 1936 - English translation of the first article. Team again is the Russian translated version of FC Arsenal Kiev which is a REDIRECT.

External links added:
 * http://arsenal-kyiv.com/page/club История киевского «Арсенала» - History of "Arsenal" Kyiv The current variant of the club documents that the club was formed in 1925 and that it was reborn in 2001
 * Через 37-м лет клуб пережил свое второе рождение. В 2001 году после окончания первого круга Чемпионата Украины по футболу 2001/02, Киевский городской совет по предложению тогдашнего мэра Киева Александра Омельченко принял решение от 18 декабря 2001 о создании ООО ФК «Арсенал». Этот момент в истории столичного клуба стал новой ступенью в возрождении былых «арсенальских» традиций в Киеве.
 * Translated: After the 37th year the club has experienced a rebirth. In 2001, after the end of the first round of Ukrainian Football Championship 2001/02, the Kyiv City Council on the proposal of the then mayor of Kyiv Alexander Omelchenko it was decided on 18 December 2001 of the establishment of FC "Arsenal". This moment in the history of the capital club became a new step in the revival of old "Arsenal" traditions in Kyiv.

Had these reference given at least a rejection of this historical linkage between all variants of the club then there would be no reason to delete. There is nothing added in the new links of significance that would clearly address that this article worthy of having its own entry. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 17:43, 1 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete - The club has been noted as the same from official sources. 23.30.103.229 (talk) 18:43, 1 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete - Two articles using the same historical reference and this one repeats what's on the other. 173.12.4.54 (talk) 19:29, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Merge and redirect, both references in the article say it is the same club. There are no sources saying otherwise.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:23, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Redirect - evidence that this is a duplication fork appears compelling. FeatherPluma (talk) 23:06, 4 August 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.