Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fabrice Elysée Kouadio Kouakou


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete with no prejudice against recreation if/when he meets WP:NFOOTBALL#2 and WP:GNG. -- KTC (talk) 11:43, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Fabrice Elysée Kouadio Kouakou

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Contested PROD. Concern was Article about a footballer who fails WP:GNG and who has not played in a fully pro league. PROD was contested by the article's creator without providing a reason. Sir Sputnik (talk) 16:25, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Sir Sputnik (talk) 16:26, 9 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete - fails WP:GNG and WP:NFOOTBALL. GiantSnowman 16:59, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete - Fails WP:NFOOTY as has not played senior international football nor played in a fully professional league. No indication that subject has garnered significant reliable coverage for any other achievements to satisfy GNG. Fenix down (talk) 17:10, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep Agree with nom that the article needs improvement, but there seem to be enough WP:RS in other languages to fulfill our WP:GNG. His team FC Infonet plays in the Meistriliiga, Estonia's mayor league. It is not listed as fully professional league but it is listed in that article as a top level league. Currently he is the third player with most goals for that league this year. UEFA: Estonian First League - Top scorers. with 30 goals in only 31 games He is also in the world's top 20 list for this year See here (in French).--Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 19:44, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Another source cites him as third candidate for this year's European Golden Shoe: Cristiano Ronaldo marca e sobe ao topo da Bota de Ouro (in Portuguese).--Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 20:19, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Can you please show the nonroutine sources that discuss this player (i.e., not match reports / team listings / stat sites). The fact that he plays in a countries top league is not relevant by consensus that only fully professional leagues impart sufficient inherent notability to individuals who have not played senior international football. Additionally, the Portuguese article you cite is incorrect. This player is not third in the running for the golden boot as this is for an award where the major European leagues are only halway through so he will almost certainly drop down the order through the rest of 2015 since someone playing in England, Spain, Italy, Germany and Portugal will only have to score 15 goals in a season in order to equal his points total. Fenix down (talk) 09:55, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Hello, both of the sources I mentioned are nonroutine.
 * In the first case it is an article about the player, and it even compares his performance (Goals/games played) to Lionel Messi. Even if the comparison does not make too much sense, mathematically it is correct and it is not a routine source. It also shows him in a list of the top scorers so far.
 * In the second case it mentions the player as having scored enough goals to be third at that time for the title. The article also mentions that he has no chances of winning the award, but his 30 goals in 31 games been mention in an article about Cristiano Ronaldo and the European Golden Shoe is, in my opinion, more than routine coverage or a passing mention.
 * As I stated previously a google search revealed various WP:RS. For your reference, here is another where he is referred to as the best African striker for the season L’USMA engage Kako Rostan pour une durée de 30 mois (in French). Mentioned also by this other source.--Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 12:19, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Well let's look at the sources you have provided:
 * This is just a stat table and is completely routine.
 * This I cannot see, I just get an error message unfortunately. However, if it is a list of top scorers then it is completely routine.
 * This is not about the player at all, but about Cristiano Ronaldo (as the title suggests). The player discussed here is mentioned very briefly in one sentence. Additionally, as I noted above, the Golden Shoe award is for the 2014/15 season. this article specifically notes that Kouakou has a total of 30 points but cannot score any more, whereas all the players in major european leagues are only halfway through their seasons. His current position in the ranking is irrelevant as the competition is nowhere near complete. Look at European Golden Shoe, in every season bar three in the last twenty years, the winner scored at least twice as many points as Kouakou.
 * This is just a routine report on his transfer. Current consensus at WP:FOOTY is that transfer reports are routine. In addition, there is not even a single quote from the player or semblance of an interview with him. It is just a report of his signing together with unrelated information (for the purpose of this discussion) about the hopes of his new club.
 * This is an article about the Tunisian club he has joined. The only mention of him is at the end and again this is just transfer speculation. I also note that the elements dealing with him are word for word identical to the source above.

Are you able to provide links to any interviews, or articles that discuss his career specifically in depth? So far all I see is a player who has not played internationally, has never played in a fully professional league and is a passing curiosity for topping the european Golden shoe table for a little while part way through the competition. Fenix down (talk) 13:11, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry but I beg to differ:
 * you don´t need to win the European Golden Shoe to be notable, been mentioned in that article about Cristiano Ronaldo and scoring 30 goals in 31 games is, in my opinion, notable.
 * The article that you can not read is extensive, and entirely about him, the site seems to be temporarily down for a technical problem.
 * The article that you say is just a routine transfer report, labels him as the best African striker for 2014, that also seems notable to me.
 * I hope this other article about the player that also compares his performance with Lionel Messi and mentions him as possibly the best African Striker for the current season may change your mind: FOOTBALL : MANUCHO L’IVOIRIEN PLUS EFFICACE QUE MESSI(in French).
 * This other article in Estonian reports him receiving an award as best player and 2012 season leading scorer, which I also deem notable. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 19:19, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I'll also respond point-by-point:
 * A person who is mentioned in an article about someone else who is notable doesn't make that person notable.
 * The page at afrik.com only generates a message readin "Site under construction. This site is not yet set up. Please come back later..."
 * Per long-standing consensus at WP:FOOTY, transfer reports are routine coverage, regardless of the notability of the player or the club. Also, the source calling him "the best striker" is the team to which he is transferring, so that is hardly unbiased.
 * An article stating that he "may be the best African striker for the 2014 calendar year" is certainly not WP:NPOV without backing it up with statistics, and that same article reports that he will not take part in the African Nations Cup (which would have conferred NFOOTY status as a FIFA tier 1 match).
 * Many amateur and semi-professional leagues give awards for their top scorers or best players, but those awards don't automatically confer any general notability. Again, the long-standing consensus at WP:FOOTY is that taking part in a fully professional league or in a FIFA tier 1 match will generally confer notability.
 * Taking all of this together, I see nothing more than a lot of WP:ROUTINE coverage. All the routine coverage in the world will not confer notability. — Jkudlick t c s 06:54, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Africa-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 13:41, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Estonia-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 13:41, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 13:41, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 13:41, 10 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete – Presently fails WP:NFOOTY for not playing in a WP:FPL and not yet playing in a FIFA tier 1 match. If he did transfer to USM Alger in the Algerian Ligue Professionnelle 1 (which is an FPL), he will technically meet NFOOTY as soon as he sets foot on the pitch in competition. When that will happen is unknown, but I must also refer to WP:CRYSTALBALL. All other coverage appears to be WP:ROUTINE, thus failing WP:GNG. — Jkudlick t c s 06:54, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete - Fails WP:NFOOTBALL as he hasn't played in a fully professional league and he doesn't have any senior international caps. IJA (talk) 12:35, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment: Does not meet WP:NFOOTBALL yet, (will soon), but clearly meets WP:GNG as there are many sources that can't be dismissed as WP:ROUTINE.
 * Let me recap the notable non routine information cited by the sources I mentioned above:
 * Kouadio was the best player and top scorer in 2012 in Estonia he received an award for it covered by the source I cited above, (Here is a second source that covers it in detail). To be the top player and best striker of a country (Estonia) is nonroutine. To Be the top player of a notable Top level league like the Meistriliiga is also notable and non routine.
 * According to at least three sources cited above he was the best African Striker by number of goals in 2014 (this is not claimed by his new team, but by independent sources, and it can be easily checked that he indeed was the top African player by goals in 2014). Again non routine and notable.
 * According to at least two independent sources, with 30 goals in 31 games, his scoring average for 2014 is superior to that of Lionel Messi. Non routine and notable.
 * He is one of the top 20 scorers for 2014 (20th). This was sourced by the Afrik.com ref above (currently down for technical trouble) and by this other source: MÁXIMOS GOLEADORES DEL 2014(in Spanish) the data can also be checked at www.uefa.com. Notable and non routine.
 * [This source] is to meet the request by by Fenix Down for an interview to the player. Notable and non routine coverage.
 * There are more sources. I agree with previous comments that technically Kouadio will not meet WP:NFOOTBALL until he playes the first game with his new team. But in my opinion, the above notable and nonroutine coverage is more than enough to meet our WP:GNG --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 19:23, 13 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete - doesn't meet WP:NFOOTY and I don't believe he meets WP:GNG either (the only source presented which I can see that is reliable, in-depth, independent and actually about this player is the soccernet.ee interview, and that's not enough IMO -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 21:19, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Hello, looks like I am the only one defending this article... You don´t think that this other source: FOOTBALL : MANUCHO L’IVOIRIEN PLUS EFFICACE QUE MESSI(in Frech) that talks just about the player, how he was top player in Estonia in 2012, 20th in Europe in 2014 and that with 30 goals in 31 games had a beter goal ratio than messi is an in depth WP:RS?
 * Which of the four notability claims I mentioned in the comment above do you think are not notable and which ones do you think are not properly sourced? --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 23:32, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment: Afrik.com site was down due to technical problems. It is up again: Manucho, l’Ivoirien qui fait mieux que Messi en 2014(in French) Does't it also qualify as an in depth WP:RS about the subject of the WP:BLP? --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 07:24, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
 * That's all fine and dandy, but it still doesn't change the fact that he presently fails WP:NFOOTY and WP:GNG, as all of his coverage is short blurbs, mere mentions, or biased based upon source. — Jkudlick t c s 07:41, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
 * And the most important two points are firstly, that these goals were scored in the Estonian league which is of nowhere near the same level as the top European leagues and secondly, this player was not even the first or second highest scorer in the league for the 2014 season! Fenix down (talk) 09:50, 14 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment: I feel like Custer at his Last Stand ;), When I first read this AfD I was going to vote Delete, but after doing some WP:Before my only choice was to vote Keep. I have just improved the article and I must insist that the article clearly meets WP:GNG. There are at least 3 sources that objectively meet the first 4 requirements cited in the policy. The only subjective point is the fifth, that significant coverage in reliable sources creates an assumption, not a guarantee, that a subject should be included. But the article does not violate WP:what Wikipedia is not and his achievements for 2012 and 2014 are indeed notable so there is no reason to justify deletion. In addition, it is confirmed by USM Alger that he has been transferred, and according to the subject he will probably play his first game before the end of this month, meeting also WP:NFOOTBALL.--Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 18:35, 14 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Looks like WP:NFOOTBALL is also met, Manucho scored 2 goals on his first game with USM Alger in a friendly match against AS Marsa. there are at least two sources that covered the story, here is one in English: USM Algiers crushed Tunisian AS Marsa 6-2 in a friendly.--Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 22:42, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
 * For info, playing in a friendly does not satisfy the requirement to have played in a fully professional league, so NFOOTBALL isn't met -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:32, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
 * This is just a case of WP:TOOSOON. With footballers it happens all the time. There won't be any problem recreating the article if he plays in a competitive game. Fenix down (talk) 10:11, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
 * So friendly is not good enough, ok, he has played for a professional league team, do you have any doubt that he will play again very soon? do you have any specific counter arguments based in policy to my claim that it meets point by point WP:GNG. Does it make any sense to still defend its deletion? --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 14:06, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
 * But he hasn't and consensus agreed over literally hundreds of different discussions that assurances from individuals that so and so is bound to play in a competitive FPL / international match soon are unacceptable per WP:TOOSOON. Like I said, once he has actually done something per NFOOTY that is considered notable, I will support the existence of the article. Prior to that happening, my concerns over GNG - and why those links do not meet GNG to my mind - are well documented above and to date it appears they are echoed to a greater or lesser extent by every other contributor bar yourself above. Unless additional sources showing significant coverage that satisfies GNG then I think we have said all we need to on this matter. Fenix down (talk) 15:16, 15 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete - Fails WP:GNG and WP:NFOOTBALL... JMHamo (talk) 16:34, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment: I can see that I am the least experienced editor in this AfD and I am also the only editor that is not a member of WikiProject_Football. It is also clear that I am the only one that thinks that WP:GNG is met, so...
 * At this point I am beginning to question if maybe I am missing something in the interpretation of the guideline. I am open to learning, so if I am wrong, I would appreciate it if you could help me understand how so I will not make the same mistakes in the future.
 * you told me that the source with the interview met the significant coverage outlined in our WP:GNG policy but that just one source with significant coverage was not enough. Don't this other two sources (FOOTBALL : MANUCHO L’IVOIRIEN PLUS EFFICACE QUE MESSI(in Frech), Manucho, l’Ivoirien qui fait mieux que Messi en 2014(in French)) also meet the guidelines? if not please let me know why so I can't understand it. If they are valid, is 3 sources not enough? --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 19:01, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
 * What I said was the interview was some thing that can help assert GNG. One interview is nowhere near enough to imply significant coverage. Regarding the other sources. He has not outscored anyone. Comparing him to Messi is false as they are playing completely different standards of football. Additionally in the 2014 season he was not even the top goalscorer in Estonia so scoring thirty goals in that league is not in itself notable. Fenix down (talk) 19:52, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.