Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fantasy bond


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete due to lack of significant coverage in secondary sources that are considered reliable for the subject area. RL0919 (talk) 21:48, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Fantasy bond

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As an IP rightfully said on the talk page "This article cites books based on doctrine, whose authors do not base their conclusions on any meaningful research. It's a really bad example of Wikipedia descending into esoteric pseudoscience." Indeed, the reference are at best primary sources (the works of Robert Firestone, the originator of the concept himself), at worst graphic novels (such as Couch Fiction) or self-help books (Healing The Shame That Binds You). I cannot find any WP:MEDRS source that discusses the fantasy bond or remotely proves that this theory is accepted in mainstream psychology or psychiatry. Deletion is thus warranted on two grounds: 1. from a WP:GNG perspective, we don't have sources that are reliable in context; 2. even if the concept is deemed notable, this article should be deleted per WP:TNT to allow for a creation of WP:NPOV/WP:FRINGE-compliant article. JBchrch  talk  14:58, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Philosophy-related deletion discussions.  JBchrch   talk  14:58, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Spirituality-related deletion discussions.  JBchrch   talk  14:58, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Science-related deletion discussions.  JBchrch   talk  14:58, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Medicine-related deletion discussions.  JBchrch   talk  14:58, 10 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep There are plenty of mentions that do not include Dr. Firestone, for example here and here, and the concept is unique and something someone would expect to find on Wikipedia after searching the web. Fringe or not, it has many media mentions and meets Notability. Definitely deserves to stay, in my opinion. Pyrrho the Skeptic (talk) 16:16, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I think that an article in an online magazine and a self-published blog post are unfortunately unreliable in the context of psychology, and they are certainly not WP:MEDRS. Per GNG, Notability can only be established on the basis of reliable sources. JBchrch   talk  17:00, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
 * The links I posted are a Cognitive-Behavioral Institute and a PBS publication. Pyrrho the Skeptic (talk) 17:25, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
 * The first link is an article on the website Rewire, a national publication for adults in their 20s and 30s who want to improve their lives and build a better and brighter future for all : there is a wide and long-standing consensus that such pop magazines are not considered reliable for psychological and medical claims. The second link is a post by "marion" (no last name) on the blog section of the website of "Dr." Kathie Matthis' cognitive behavioral therapy practice, which she calls the "California Cognitive-Behavioral Institute". She claims to be a Dr., but apparently, she holds a doctorate "Doctor of Psychology and Divinity" (???) from a non-specified university. As a result, this post is not reliable per WP:SPS, and especially per WP:MEDRS.  JBchrch   talk  18:06, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
 * This isn't about claims being made about the concept, it's about whether or not the concept has received enough attention and interest to be included in Wikipedia. An article about ghosts does not imply ghosts exist, only that they are a topic worthy of existing on Wikipedia for the general public's inevitable interest. Pyrrho the Skeptic (talk) 19:08, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
 * This is not what GNG says though: notability requires coverage in reliable sources per the reliable source guideline, which includes WP:RSSELF and WP:RS/MC. There is a logic here: if you can't write anything in an article because you lack the relevant reliable sources to make any claims about the topic, then there's no reason for a Wikipedia article about it to exist in the first place. JBchrch   talk  19:23, 10 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Comment The problem here is that we are stating in Wikipedia's voice something that is based on Firestone, Firestone, and Firestone, with some lashings of Firestone on top. Peer-reviewed lit search does not give me the impression that anyone else has taken up this concept and done actual science with it. If this is kept, it needs to be rewritten to clearly attribute all these statements to the one guy whose baby it is, and not give the impression that this is an accepted, established concept. -- Elmidae (talk · contribs) 17:34, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment: What said above is confirmed by a search for "fantasy bond" in peer-reviewed articles in PsycINFO, which finds 14 articles, all but two of which are either by Firestone or are reviews of books by Firestone, and in the two exceptions the term "fantasy bond" only occurs in the title of a cited book by Firestone, not in the article text:
 * Dicke, J. A. (2002). The use of touch and the synthetic, anatomically correct penis in the diagnosis and treatment of sexual abuse. Traumatology: An International Journal, 8(2), 87–102.
 * Fabrikant, C. (1989). Review of The fantasy bond: Effects of psychological defenses on interpersonal relations. Psychotherapy, 26(2), 256.
 * Firestone, R. W. (1984). A concept of the primary fantasy bond: A developmental perspective. Psychotherapy, 21(2), 218–225.
 * Firestone, R. W. (1994). A new perspective on the oedipal complex: A voice therapy session. Psychotherapy, 31(2), 342–351.
 * Firestone, R. W. (1987). Destructive effects of the fantasy bond in couple and family relationships. Psychotherapy, 24(2), 233–239.
 * Firestone, R. W. (1989). Parenting groups based on voice therapy. Psychotherapy, 26(4), 524–529.
 * Firestone, R. W. (1990). Prescription for psychotherapy. Psychotherapy, 27(4), 627–635.
 * Firestone, R. W. (1986). The "inner voice" and suicide. Psychotherapy, 23(3), 439–447.
 * Firestone, R. W. (2002). The death of psychoanalysis and depth therapy. Psychotherapy, 39(3), 223–232.
 * Firestone, R. W., & Seiden, R. H. (1987). Microsuicide and suicidal threats of everyday life. Psychotherapy, 24(1), 31–39.
 * Magnavita, J. J. (1997). Review of Combating destructive thought processes: Voice therapy and separation theory. Psychotherapy, 34(3), 337–338.
 * Morrant, C. (1999). Review of Fear of intimacy. Psychotherapy, 36(4), 416–417.
 * Sluzki, C. E. (2004). Review of Creating a life of meaning and compassion: The wisdom of psychotherapy. American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, 74(1), 90.
 * Winick, B. J. (1998). Client denial and resistance in the advance directive context: Reflections on how attorneys can identify and deal with a psycholegal soft spot. Psychology, Public Policy, and Law, 4(3), 901–923.
 * Biogeographist (talk) 17:57, 10 August 2021 (UTC) and 18:17, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
 * ...and even in the Winick article, all we have about the fantasy bond is one sentence citing Firestone: Self-denial about death produces a variety of psychological disturbances (Firestone, 1985, pp. 275-276) (p. 906), the reference being The fantasy bond: Structure of psychological defenses. JBchrch   talk  18:14, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Correct. I amended my comment since somehow I omitted an item as well. Biogeographist (talk) 18:17, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Psychology-related deletion discussions. –LaundryPizza03 ( d  c̄ ) 22:32, 10 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete per all above. No secondary WP:MEDRS sources covering the topic. –LaundryPizza<b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 22:33, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete Such sources that do exist fail the relevant standard. XOR&#39;easter (talk) 23:36, 14 August 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.