Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Father Stalin look at this


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. / ƒETCH COMMS  /  18:36, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Father Stalin look at this

 * – ( View AfD View log )

The subject lacks notablity, since the poem has only been mentioned in one book. The additional references in the article are for explaining terms used in the poem, which is original research. The only available information available about the poem is presented in the single line in the lead. The source does not even provide a title for the poem. TFD (talk) 17:48, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Speedy Keep And I am getting sick of this user following me around and getting articles I create deleted. It`s a Ukrainian nursery rhyme from the 1930 so finding sourcing is difficult. But not impossible. And I believe Bloodlands: Europe Between Stalin and Hitler is a perfectly fine source to use for this article. Tentontunic (talk) 17:56, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ukraine-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 19:19, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Poetry-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 19:19, 11 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Weak delete Without third part references it seems to be an original research. Rirunmot (talk) 22:38, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Is not Bloodlands a decent reference? No original research there after all. Tentontunic (talk) 23:17, 11 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete: 1) No notability claim. You'd expect an social impact claim for a nursery rhyme.  2) Not the object of independent studies: passing references in other texts does not indicate this has been the object of secondary studies.  Look for Ukrainian folk tales academic works.  Ping me if a notability claim and / or texts which make this the object of their study arise. Fifelfoo (talk) 00:19, 12 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Comments. (1) I've asked our friends over at Ukrainian Wikipedia for assistance in searching for the rhyme or any information about it in its native language.. I'd suggest that the creator of this article should monitor that link and respond there to any replies posted . ( You can set your user-interface preferences to English by using the drop-down list here. ) I'll try to monitor the query, as well, but I don't have any particular interest in this article. (2) No mention in multiple proprietary databases searching many millions of mostly behind-paywall articles in English, e.g. ProQuest; Gale; GeneralOnefile; Oxford Premium; & etc. (3) Other than the Bloodlands book, the only other mention I could find of the rhyme in English was by the Boston Globe in the Sunday's paper for 13 March 2011 ( try this link, or this one ), in a review of Bloodlands. –  OhioStandard  (talk) 03:50, 12 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't recognize this immediately as a single unique poem but rather as a theme. There are multiple variations usually four-liners that are sang in no particular order. You may look at http://ukrlife.org/main/evshan/Golodomor9.htm and search for "Сталін" (Stalin), "Сталін на стіні" (Stalin on the wall), "Батьку Сталін, подивися" (Father Stalin look). Абендфарт (talk) 09:40, 12 March 2011 (UTC)


 * That's a very helpful explanation, Абендфарт, and giving us the target search terms with their English translations is a very thoughtful touch as well. Thank you, –  OhioStandard  (talk) 18:02, 12 March 2011 (UTC)


 * This is one of many Chastushkas created in 1930s. I agree with the comment above that such theme existed and was popular, but this version was just one of many. The link http://ukrlife.org/main/evshan/Golodomor9.htm gives a great number of poems like that — NickK (talk) 09:49, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
 * This is a song. Text: "

Батьку Сталін, подивися, Як ми в СОЗі розжилися: Хата раком, клуня боком, Троє коней з одним оком.

А на хаті серп і молот, А у хаті смерть і голод, Ні корови, ні свині, Тільки Сталін на стіні.

Тато в СОЗі й мама в СОЗі, Діти плачуть на дороpі. Нема хліба, нема сала, Все місцева власть забрала.

Не шукайте домовину, Батько з'їв свою дитину. З бучком ходить бригадир, Виганяє на Сибір."

Source: http://vuzlib.com/content/view/2047/52/. Full pdf of book - http://www.history.org.ua/JournALL/pro/18/27.pdf --

Alex Blokha (talk) 10:11, 12 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you to our Ukrainian friends for their help. This certainly shows notability does it not? Tentontunic (talk) 13:50, 12 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, you know the old proverb, Tenton: Нам необхідно когось, хто розуміє українську, щоб відповісти на це питання! ;-) Best, –  OhioStandard  (talk) 15:10, 12 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, thank you for finding that. Tentontunic, it does not show notability of this specific poem, although it does show the notability of Chastushkas.  That Snyder chose this poem as an example does not create notability, and he provides scant informatiion about it.  You might want to translate it and add it to the Chastushka article.  It appears the title is "Father Stalin, look".  Snyder changed some of the poem in order to make it read as a poem in English, hence "three horses with one eye" becomes "All the horses broken nags".  You cannot by the way provide commentary about what the terms in the poem mean, unless you can find a source discussing the poem and what it means, otherwise it is original research.  OS, good comment.  --TFD (talk) 15:18, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
 * It is not Chastushka. It's song. Chastushka has 4 lines (sorry for my english :)) of text.--Alex Blokha (talk) 16:48, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Your English is good, Alex. It is better than our Ukrainian :-) and we are happy for your help; thanks! –  OhioStandard  (talk) 18:02, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Is the song notable Alex? How well known is it in Ukraine? Tentontunic (talk) 17:02, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, I don't know any ukrainian song about famine, including this one. So, I cann't say is it notable or not. But the song was present in the book written in 2008(the pdf, i've mentioned) - 75 years after famine and in shnyders book in 2010.  --Alex Blokha (talk) 17:26, 12 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Tenton, take a look at these Chastushka examples. If I understand correctly, these four-line mini-songs would be made up to suit an idea or occasion, remembered, then stitched together again later, not necessarily in any particular order. The nearest example that I can think of is what western soldiers call cadence calls.


 * If you've never heard cadence calls before (there are audio recordings at that article) it'll be hard to understand the comparison. But soldiers would make these up to use while marching or running, to help them stay in step and to keep their spirits up. One "theme" that became popular dealt with a draft-dodger who stayed at home and had it easy, a fictional guy named "Jody". So, for example, one four-line cadence call on the "theme" of "Jody" might be:


 * Ain't no use in going back / Jody's got your girlfriend on her back / Ain't no use in going home / Yeah, he's got her all alone.


 * It was a sort of "call and response" kind of "singing" (somewhat monotone, actually) where one soldier would call out the first line, the group would answer with the second line, the same single soldier would call out the third line, and the group would again answer with the fourth. Then the process would begin again with another four-line "song", probably also about "Jody", at least until people got tired of that "theme" and switched to a new one. This could go on for hours, as long as the group was marching or running.


 * In real field conditions, at least, as opposed to training conditions, this would have had a pretty informal "work song" kind of character to it: just a means to ease the boredom while on the march. Each time a group would start in with these cadence calls they'd probably use some old four-line "songs", some newer ones, some on a different theme, maybe some new ones would get made up, and they'd probably seldom occur in the exact same order, these four-line "mini-songs", on subsequent days...


 * This isn't an extremely exact analogy to your Lenin song, and I've taken some liberties in explaining it, but it's probably not a really awful analogy, either. Anyway, I think our Ukrainian friends are trying to tell us that the particular Lenin themed example given in Bloodlands might not really be a "song" in the same sense that "Happy Birthday to You" or "Greensleeves" is a "song". Excuse the long-winded explanation, but maybe it makes the whole thing a little more clear? –  OhioStandard  (talk) 19:13, 12 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete - Nobody can possibly argue that an article on chastushki in not worthy of inclusion, nor an article or even a series of articles on aspects of the 1933 famine that swept parts of Russia, Ukraine, and Kazakhstan. What we have here, however, is the interpretation of a single poem. Even that might be worthy of inclusion if a poem played a seminal part in cultural history — but this is a single chastushka, after all. With all due respect to the author, this does not seem to rise to the level of inclusion-worthiness. Merge some content to chastushka if necessary. Carrite (talk) 16:29, 12 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete - Definitely non-notable as an article subject, and mostly contains OR as the article's content. Can easily be merged to (or mentioned in) one of the articles on wider or more general phenomena of Chastushki, Folk songs, etc. cherkash (talk) 20:26, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete (or merge if appropriate). One example of many songs, jokes, rhymes, etc. I don't see how this one is particularly notable or worthy inclusion in Wikipedia. Renata (talk) 22:24, 13 March 2011 (UTC)


 * "I wish the monks would admit that 'Buddhist colony' does sound a lot like 'nudist colony' and just lift the restraining order!" Is that notable? –  OhioStandard  (talk) 23:49, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Huh??? Renata (talk) 01:58, 14 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, you're the one who said jokes could be notable, and I really like that one. –  OhioStandard  (talk) 03:17, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I did not actually say that, but, well, please see category:Jokes. Renata (talk) 15:23, 14 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment My inclination would be to keep and expand, it's a less "provocative" title than expanding the article and calling it "Anti-Stalinist nursery rhymes." Question to TFD, would you nominate such an article for deletion as well? P ЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 19:15, 15 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Weak keep, also Merge to Holodomor. Lack of mentions in other sources makes notability problematic. Peters idea is good, but somebody would need to write and reference such an article first... Another option would be to search for sources in Ukrainian; they may establish notability for the current article. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 20:47, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.