Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Feast of Tabernacles (Christian holiday)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Interesting discussion and development. It appears that the solution has been found, and relevant material has been included in Sukkot. The Feast of Tabernacles title is already a redirect to Sukkot, so the current title is an unlikely search term. Delete is the appropriate action, and what consensus calls for. There are some requests to userfy, and I would be willing to do that on request.  SilkTork  *YES! 12:51, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Feast of Tabernacles (Christian holiday)

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Article was created as POV fork from the original article on the Jewish holiday. Much content has been added and deleted, but there's almost nothing in the current article state that's distinct from the parent article. SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:08, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete . Not only does the content mirror the Jewish Sukkot article, but it reads like WP:SYNTH, as the only references are appended to chapter and verse, not content. Someone should be able to write something about the Christian celebration of this holiday, but this page isn't it. Yoninah (talk) 20:53, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
 * After further editing by Equazcion  (see below), I change my vote to Keep. Yoninah (talk) 14:15, 17 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment -- I'm a little confused about this article. Previous revisions seemed to be adequately separate from the Jewish holiday, ie. this one. Would a revert to that version handle the main concern here? Equazcion  ( talk ) 01:46, 17 Feb 2010 (UTC)
 * It appears that a total overhaul of the article, changing it from a Christian perspective to a Jewish one, was made over 14 edits in November 2009 by a one-time anonymous editor. I would agree with Equazcion  that going back to the version before this IP user started changing things would solve the problem. Yoninah (talk) 09:20, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I've reverted to the version prior to that IP's edits (the diff I referenced above), albeit with some copy editing. Equazcion  ( talk ) 13:56, 17 Feb 2010 (UTC)
 * The IP was likely simply confused and was unaware of the original article, about the Jewish version of this holiday. Glass  Cobra  22:23, 17 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete. Keep.  This holiday is NOT identical to Sukkot (the Jewish version of the holiday), even though it shares a common origin.  Pentecost is not the same as the Jewish Shavuoth, either, and Easter is not the same as the Jewish Passover.  Second of all, the Christian customs may be different.  For example, the common Protestant belief in sola scriptura may lead to the adoption of practices based on the written Bible only, whereas many of the common Jewish practices are derived from the Oral Torah, the Talmud and Rabbinic literature.  An article focusing on the Christian practice of the holiday and the history of its observance in Christianity is probably of interest to a different group than the Sukkot article, and would be a notable and helpful addition to Wikipedia's collection of Christianity-related articles.  -- AFriedman   (talk)  06:43, 18 February 2010 (UTC) Several editors, including myself, have copied the entire contents of this article to Sukkot.  The section Sukkot looks quite good over there, and is actually quite short in spite of the fact that it contains all the useful information in the article.  No need to keep this as a separate article.  I change my vote to Delete and support redirecting the page to "Sukkot".  -- AFriedman   (talk)  09:24, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't really have a position on this, but just pointing out that so far there aren't really any good sources for the Christian observance of this, at least as far as I've seen so far. There's just a reference to Jesus having observed it or commanded his disciples to observe it in a bible quote. Maybe someone can find actual reliable references to the Christian observance nowadays -- that would really solve the issue, I think, if such sources exist. Equazcion  ( talk ) 01:49, 19 Feb 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep. This article needs a lot of work and expansion, but it is a good addition to the other Christianity-related articles already in WP.  As AFriedman stated above, it is not the same as Sukkot as it is celebrated by Christian groups, not by those within Judaism.  I would like to see this article expanded and, if time permits, will work on doing so in the near future (if, of course, it is not deleted).  Thanks.  --SkagitRiverQueen (talk) 18:18, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The waiting period for deletion discussions is partially meant to allow time for addressing article issues. If you could at least show sources to show that this is indeed a holiday observed presently, that would really help; Right now it seems the article just makes an original claim based on a bible quote. Equazcion  ( talk ) 18:24, 20 Feb 2010 (UTC)
 * Here are some links to show that The Feast of Tabernacles is observed by Christians:, , , , . Is that enough?  There are plenty more out there... --SkagitRiverQueen (talk) 18:30, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if those can be considered reliable sources. I'm still abstaining from voting, like to see what others have to say on this. Equazcion  ( talk ) 18:34, 20 Feb 2010 (UTC)
 * Huh? Three of them are Christian organization websites that are announcing their upcoming celebration of FOT this year and are taking reservations for it.  One of them, the International Christian Embassy in Jerusalem, has Christian participants who come to that convocation from around the world (I know of a number of them from Tanzania personally who go annually).  What about those sites and organizations keep them from being considered "reliable sources" by you?  --SkagitRiverQueen (talk) 18:38, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
 * You really need to start using that preview button SRQ. I'm bad with that myself, but just saying :) Anyway I'm not sure if an organization holding an event for money is necessarily reason to say it's a bona fide holiday. It's certainly not a secondary source, which is needed to show notability; I'm not even sure if it could be considered a valid primary one (but maybe it could, I'm not sure myself). Equazcion  ( talk ) 18:44, 20 Feb 2010 (UTC)
 * It actually is a valid primary source, sorry. Still, it's not secondary, so the notability issue still isn't addressed. Equazcion  ( talk ) 18:50, 20 Feb 2010 (UTC)
 * Secondary sources(?):, , (I added this last one as a link to the book at its reviews at Amazon because this is a discussion - not an article - I would ref it to the book differently for an article, of course).  There are more available, do I need to post them here or is the above enough?  --SkagitRiverQueen (talk) 19:14, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) If holding an event, taking reservations for that event, and collecting money for expenses for that event isn't a reason to say it's a "bona fide holiday", then synagogues throughout the world have been holding their Seder observance as an "[UN]bona fide holiday" for a very long time. --SkagitRiverQueen (talk) 18:51, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Passover is mentioned in secondary sources. The fact that Passover is held in synagogues isn't the reason it's considered notable. Equazcion  ( talk ) 18:55, 20 Feb 2010 (UTC)


 * You completely missed the point of my comment. I wasn't arguing that Passover is or isn't a bona fide celebration (which it is), I was pointing out that your rationale ("I'm not sure if an organization holding an event for money is necessarily reason to say it's a bona fide holiday") doesn't hold water because synagogues have been holding overservances and celebrations for $$ for a very long time.  In modern Judaism, if you want to reserve a good seat at a Seder table in many congregations, you have to pay for it.  --SkagitRiverQueen (talk) 19:00, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Then yes, I did miss the point of your comment, which was to argue with me over something that has no bearing on this process. Secondary sources are what matter. Sorry if I said "bona fide holiday" instead of "notable", but let's move on from that. For the purposes of AFD, secondary sources need to be shown, and they thus far haven't been. Equazcion  ( talk ) 19:02, 20 Feb 2010 (UTC)
 * I wasn't trying to argue with you, I was trying to help educate you on something you seem to not know much about. --SkagitRiverQueen (talk) 19:14, 20 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete/userfy Although the primary concern of the nominator seems to have been addressed, as the article now describes a separate concept from the Jewish holiday, notability hasn't been established yet through reliable secondary sources. The article thus far basically constitutes nothing more than an original interpretation of bible verses. I'll revise my vote if this changes. Equazcion  ( talk ) 19:43, 20 Feb 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment - "Original interpretation"? No - you're now talking eisegesis, and that isn't the case at all.  Jesus celebrated Sukkot because He was an observant Jew - that is provable through a simple exegesis of John 7 and 8 from the original Greek (as well simply reading as various New Testament translations).  --SkagitRiverQueen (talk) 19:54, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The original interpretation is that such evidence alone constitutes a Christian holiday. I don't see how showing Jesus celebrated something means we should have an article on it. If that were true we could have separate Christian articles for every Jewish holiday, since Jesus celebrated them all, being an observant Jew. Besides this still doesn't address the main problem, which is that no matter what, secondary sources need to be shown to back up this being an actual Christian holiday.  Equazcion  ( talk ) 22:50, 20 Feb 2010 (UTC)
 * Userfy so SkagitRiverQueen can improve the article. A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 04:00, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * That would be fine with me. Equazcion  ( talk ) 04:36, 24 Feb 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete as not verifiable as a notable Christian feast, although Christian may observe it. --Bejnar (talk) 05:43, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I've just added some references to the article. There are lots of others.  Does anyone want to add more?  -- AFriedman   (talk)  06:42, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think there are any there yet that could be considered reliable secondary sources. Not to say there aren't any available, but I didn't find any in my cursory search, and none are currently in the article. Equazcion  ( talk ) 07:08, 24 Feb 2010 (UTC)
 * Reference #8 (Good News Magazine) looked like a reliable source to me. -- AFriedman   (talk)  07:33, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd question that being considered a reliable secondary source, but even so, if you read the relevant section of that page, it too is just a description/interpretation of bible quotes, and says nothing about whether Christians do or should celebrate the holiday. Equazcion  ( talk ) 16:43, 24 Feb 2010 (UTC)
 * I've reviewed the additions, and I still think that Delete is appropriate. --Bejnar (talk) 04:52, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

 Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Black Kite 00:51, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Userfy There isn't much separate content here. If it could be expanded, so as to not fail G10, then it definitely does qualify for inclusion. NativeForeigner Talk/Contribs 00:34, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete or Userfy - too much of a mess to stay in mainspace now. It reeks of undue synthesis. I'm not sure who celebrates this from the article or the sources, and whether it's so important. Bearian (talk) 01:02, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.


 * Keep Merge to Sukkot, since sources are cited for its existence. But make it clear that only a small number of Christians celebrate this holiday. An better option is to merge to the article on the Jewish holiday and mention there that some Christians also celebrate it. It is not at all clear that they are celebrating a distinct Christian holiday. Readers are better served by a merge, more people will read the information and it will be clear that what is happening is Christians celebrating a Jewish holiday, as the sources seem to indicate. Kitfoxxe (talk) 04:12, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment. I believe the article needs some improvement. It appears that the celebration of the Feast of Tabernacles is decidedly a minority position among Christians. That does not mean that Wikipedia should ignore it, but it does mean that the article needs to explain which Christian denominations celebrate this holiday, not just say that it is celebrated by "some Christians". It would also be helpful if there were sources provided from independent reliable sources, that is, sources written by scholars or journalists who discussed the celebration of the Feast of Tabernacles by Christians from an independent point of view, as opposed to sources written only by people who are themselves trying to promote celebration of this holiday by Christians. Currently, the majority of the citations in this article are to Biblical verses about Sukkot/Tabernacles, but there need to be more references regarding who among Christians celebrate the holiday in the modern day and how they celebrate it. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 04:16, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete - No reliable secondary sources. It would be great to find an objective source which explains who widely (or not) this holiday is actually observed. I agree with Metropolitan90, but that leads me to vote to delete. Racepacket (talk) 04:28, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep I second what Kitfoxxe said. Best to merge it. Bejinhan  Talk   07:15, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I am a Christian and have never heard of this being a Christian holiday. On the other hand, Christians are free to celebrate any Jewish holidays or ceremonies that they like, and sometimes do -- both to fellowship with Jewish friends and to learn more about our own religion's roots. Kitfoxxe (talk) 17:12, 26 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep as per Kitfoxxe. --Joe Decker (talk) 23:09, 26 February 2010 (UTC)  Changed to delete in view of StAnselm's merge of this information into Sukkot.  --Joe Decker (talk) 04:09, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 14:29, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep It's no more a POV fork of the Jewish holiday than Easter is of Passover. Really, Judaism and Christianity look at the same source text, the Hebrew scriptures, and come up with markedly different interpretations.  The "fork" isn't a Wikipedia POV fork... it's a 2,000 year old religious fork that continues to this day. Jclemens (talk) 17:32, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Again, the nominator's concerns have been addressed already. The article still lacks reliable secondary sources confirming that this is indeed a holiday celebrated by Christians. The potential Christian version being different from the Jewish holiday is not exactly what's in question anymore. Equazcion  ( talk ) 17:37, 27 Feb 2010 (UTC)
 * But Easter is celebrated by most Christians. The Feast of Tabernacles is celebrated only by a small minority of Christians. I would be willing to support this article if it clearly indicated which Christian groups do endorse the celebration of Tabernacles with reference to independent, reliable sources. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 20:20, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Merge to Sukkot Done. Delete. The pertinent question is, "Do Christians who celebrate this think they are celebrating a Jewish feast, or a Christian feast?" Now, one of the websites mentioned says, Sukkot (the Feast of Tabernacles ) is not a "Jewish festival", but rather a "Hebrew" festival, for it was given to all the Israelite tribes, not just Judah. But that is clearly implying that they are celebrating Sukkot. The content of Feast of Tabernacles (Christian holiday) should be a section of the Sukkot page. StAnselm (talk) 21:05, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment. I think Sukkot should have a section called "The Feast of Tabernacles in the Christian tradition" or something like that. But it's really hard to find relevant material. Is there any reference to any non-Jewish Christians in church history celebrating it? StAnselm (talk) 05:47, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Further comment. I have added a "Sukkot in the Christian tradition" section to the Sukkot article, and copied the relevant information across. I can now change my vote to delete . StAnselm (talk) 00:38, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete/Redirect: this article is clearly about Sukkot, and all three non-Bible references given explicitly say so. With the merge to Sukkot, this article has no function. -- Radagast3 (talk) 09:36, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment. I don't know why I didn't look into this sooner, but there are three similar articles that need to be merged into their respective main articles: Feast of Trumpets (Christian holiday), Passover (Christian holiday) and Day of Atonement (Christian holiday). StAnselm (talk) 11:18, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment Many Hindus celebrate American Thanksgiving, but there is no need for an article: "American Thanksgiving (Hindu holiday)". Just an example. Kitfoxxe (talk) 15:52, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.