Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Felix Kersten

Felix Kersten
Felix Kersten was proposed for deletion. This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was keep.

Non-notable. Google returns 770 results, many of them mirrors of the same story from one website. How notable is a masseur for a prince? Luigi30 19:19, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * What the heck? Massage's Greatest Humanitarian?  Is that like most public spirited chiropractor or something?  Not encyclopedic content, just an anecdote, if true.  Geogre 20:33, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. If a dead princess's butler is officially "a Celebrity", then so is a masseur for a prince. Don't get him out of here... P Ingerson 01:18, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. Definitely notable, not for being masseur to a prince, but as Himmler's masseur and specifically as an intermediary in the negotiations with Himmler which led to Folke Bernadotte's rescue operation (and I think in other negotiations as well). His war memoirs were published in their second English edition in 1956 with an introduction by H. R. Trevor-Roper. (I added this to the article, but more could be written.) / up+land 05:36, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Interesting to say the least. Keep, not paper, etc.  &mdash;[[en:RaD Man|RaD Man (talk)]] 07:24, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. There was an official investigation by a commision installed by the Dutch government about this man. They thought his story was too unlikely to be true but then they had to admit that Kersten was right. Later the Dutch historian Lou de Jong investigated the man again and found that he had exaggerated his claims of having saved many Dutch Jews. Dutch 1995 article According to the scholarly book by Heinz Hoehne about the history of the SS, Kersten got to know from Himmler that it was Goebbels idea to kill all the Jews and that the loyal Himmler first objected and was very sad about it. Kersten was also a major influence on Himmler in giving up his loyalty to Hitler, according to Hoehne's standard book  about the History of the SS. According to Hoehne, Kersten saved the Finnish Jewish population from the Holocaust by a cunning trick i.e. asking the Finnish parliament for permission, which took so much time that the chances of war had been reversed. It should be noted that what Hoehne wrote was before Lou de Jong investigated him again and exposed him. Andries 07:40, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep --[[User:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway|Talk]] 10:17, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. I saw a book about this man in a chain bookstore just the other week. Samaritan 10:21, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep; an obscure and slightly bizzare-sounding character, but a historical figure nonetheless. (I'm refraining from adding it to the page without checking, but AIUI he's notable in another way - almost all the Weird Occult Things popular history records about the SS came via him, and there's some argument he made large amounts up out of whole cloth, which would further provide notability). That, and I figure if I've already heard of someone historical they must be at least notable in some way ;-) Shimgray 12:30, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Most people don't realize that Himmler, although well-documented as an efficient mass-murderer by remote control, was a pushover for personal appeals. I'm not sure how notable this person is, since virtually anyone with immediate access to Himmler could (and frequently did) convince him to sign orders diverting individuals and small groups from the death camps. Abstain Wyss 12:56, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Wyss, Like who? Kersten is the only person that I am aware who did this for many Jews. Kersten may have exaggerated his efforts after the war though for obvious reasons. He received a medal from the Dutch government for saving Jews, which may have been unjustified. Apart from Walter Schellenberg I think there was no other person who had so much influence on changing Himmler's devotional loyalty to Hitler. Andries 17:52, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * I'm not referring to people who diverted "many jews" from the death camps, but to a known characteristic of Himmler's. Sure, I'd say Kersten probably exagerated and I certainly would hesitate to accept Himmler's masseuse had much of anything to do with influencing where Himmler's views were already going. I'm sorry I can't name any specific examples, they were typically "friends of friends" with Jewish relatives or wives. Please note that I abstained my vote. Wyss 20:31, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * What the heck? Keep this encyclopedic content. [[User:GRider|GRider\talk]] 18:32, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. Appears to meet the bar for notability. --Improv 19:24, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep based on the research that's been done here. Even if his actual accomplishments were nowhere near as great as his claimed accomplishments, the fact that he apparently fooled quite so many people for so long into accepting his claimed accomplishments as fact pushes him above the bar for notability. -- Antaeus Feldspar 22:06, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like other '/delete' pages is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion or on the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.