Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Finland – South Africa relations


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 16:55, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Finland – South Africa relations

 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

Nothing more to say here than X embassy in Y; WP:NOTDIR applies. Stifle (talk) 09:43, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep Other nominators of these articles have looked beyond the article (which I agree is crap) to see if the topic itself shows potential. Generally, this is done by looking at Google news and then, if one concludes that what's there isn't much, uses that as an argument in favor of deletion.  In this case, I think there's enough here:
 * 2008 "South Africa and Finland have signed a cooperation agreement to support biosciences projects in the Southern African Development Community (SADC)";
 * | 2009 Minister Väyrynen to visit South Africa and Zambia
 * 2005 arms inspections - international observers from Finland and South Africa were allowed to check a number of IRA dumps in Northern Ireland.
 * Others might disagree as to whether this is enough to support the topic. This is just what's found in the last five years. Mandsford (talk) 13:02, 20 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The first one isn't too bad, but the second one is just a visit abroad by a Finnish minister, and the third is two people who happen to be from those two countries inspecting something else in the UK. I think no article would be better than the article we have. Stifle (talk) 13:06, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete This article is a directory listing and the sources cover individual events over five of the sixty years of relations. This does not satisfy coverage of the topic as a whole by a third-party. -- Blue Squadron  Raven  17:21, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete. The world is like an apartment building. Most of countries that live in it will bump into each other on occasion, while getting the mail, taking out the rubbish, or maybe have a brief conversation at someone else's party.  But that doesn't make their relationship important or notable.  If they are friends and have dinner at each others' houses and borrow the power drill or a muffin pan then there is a notable relationship.  In this case Finland and South Africa don't even say "hi" when they pass in the hallway, they just smile and nod. Drawn Some (talk) 19:22, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
 * That would make a great SAT question wouldn't it? "Apartment building"  is to "world" as "power drill" is to (a) humanitarian aid (b occupation force  (c) nuclear weapon (d) football diaspora  Mandsford (talk) 01:18, 21 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep per references found. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 06:41, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
 * They're trivial references. Stifle (talk) 08:53, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Trivial is a purely subjective term, cite Wikipedia policy. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 17:25, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Thou sayest. Mandsford (talk) 12:22, 21 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete, random X-Y article. Thousands of agreements are signed each year and 99.9% of them do not establish encyclopedical notability. Pavel Vozenilek (talk) 17:02, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It is probably best to do at least some research on the subject before you vote. A Google search takes a few nanoseconds. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 15:13, 23 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Strong keep. The second Google Books hit using the obvious search terms is to several pages of coverage starting "the key country in African-Finnish official relations has been South Africa". That only took a few seconds to find. Pages 175-177 of this book are about the subject, as is much of this book, including an 18-page chapter and a 5-page section. And look what I've found now. Are we going to delete an article on a subject about which a 121-page book has been published? Phil Bridger (talk) 17:57, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You seem to have confused Google searches with actual references. Is this what is meant by 'article rescue'? --CalendarWatcher (talk) 22:22, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It is probably best to do at least some research yourself on the subject before you comment. A Google search takes a few nanoseconds. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 15:13, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
 * My previous comment provided one search and four actual references. Phil Bridger (talk) 22:31, 22 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep As the article is right now, its fine, giving out some interesting information about the relationship between the two nations. The scientific treaty for biosciences, and the major trade exports between them, are quite notable.   D r e a m Focus  16:32, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete. The two countries have embassies in each others' capitals, and they exchange some trade goods. And...? --CalendarWatcher (talk) 22:22, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It is probably best to do at least some research on the subject before you vote. A Google search takes a few nanoseconds. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 15:13, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
 * ...and, as shown in my comment above, the topic has been the subject of significant coverage in independent reliable sources as required by the notability guideline, including a whole book about the subject. Phil Bridger (talk) 00:07, 23 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep per mutual embassies and added info. Needs expansion. feydey (talk) 08:44, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete No reliable secondary sources detail these relationships in the depth required for an article. Hipocrite (talk) 16:21, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Question. What is it about the books that I linked above that makes you think that they are not reliable secondary sources detailing these relationships in the depth required for an article? Phil Bridger (talk) 16:36, 23 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Weak Keep. This reference:, appears to be a reliable third party source that discusses the topic in a non-trivial way. It's currently being used solely to support the statement that Finland opposed apartheid, but I'm willing bet there's some good info in there that the article would benefit from. If more sources emerge I'd change from weak to regular keep. Yilloslime T C  00:10, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * DeleteKeeping this article and the others like it creates the precedent for thousands of minor articles for the relations between every single country in the world. (Then imagine if we started on every state inside every country, where does it end?) If there is a significant relationship include it in the relevant country's article.Knobbly (talk) 13:31, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.