Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Finnegan Biden


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect‎__EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__ to Family of Joe Biden. Consensus is she's not sufficiently notable for a standalone article Star   Mississippi  02:39, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Finnegan Biden

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Notability is not inherited from famous relatives. This is a grandchild of an American president who has only received pagesix-gossip-celebrity-like coverage because of her last name. Maid of honor at a wedding, attending inaugurations and state visits abroad, etc... Zaathras (talk) 22:44, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Zaathras (talk) 22:44, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Washington, D.C.-related deletion discussions. Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 22:51, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 22:51, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 22:51, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Delaware-related deletion discussions. Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 22:51, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep aside from receiving a lot of media attention recently for attending coronation events in London with the U.S. First Lady (Today, Cosmopolitan, Fox News, The Independent, Harper's Bazaar, Yahoo News, and Hello! Magazine to name a few), she had an active role in Democratic campaigning, hosting events with Young Democrats of America and the Democratic National Committee, and also spoke in videos for the Democratic National Convention. She's been a part of public life, going on official visits and meeting with foreign leaders and dignitaries alongside her grandparents. Not to mention the coverage she received for organizing successful student protests at Sidwell Friends School and the University of Pennsylvania. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 22:58, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Coverage for such otherwise routine events only comes about as a result of her famous last name, so, WP:NOTINHERITED comes in to force here. This is celebrity gossip crap, worthy of being talked about at Reddit's r/popculturechat, but not in an encyclopedia. Zaathras (talk) 23:24, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Delaware-related deletion discussions. Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 22:51, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep aside from receiving a lot of media attention recently for attending coronation events in London with the U.S. First Lady (Today, Cosmopolitan, Fox News, The Independent, Harper's Bazaar, Yahoo News, and Hello! Magazine to name a few), she had an active role in Democratic campaigning, hosting events with Young Democrats of America and the Democratic National Committee, and also spoke in videos for the Democratic National Convention. She's been a part of public life, going on official visits and meeting with foreign leaders and dignitaries alongside her grandparents. Not to mention the coverage she received for organizing successful student protests at Sidwell Friends School and the University of Pennsylvania. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 22:58, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Coverage for such otherwise routine events only comes about as a result of her famous last name, so, WP:NOTINHERITED comes in to force here. This is celebrity gossip crap, worthy of being talked about at Reddit's r/popculturechat, but not in an encyclopedia. Zaathras (talk) 23:24, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Coverage for such otherwise routine events only comes about as a result of her famous last name, so, WP:NOTINHERITED comes in to force here. This is celebrity gossip crap, worthy of being talked about at Reddit's r/popculturechat, but not in an encyclopedia. Zaathras (talk) 23:24, 8 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Note - Willthacheerleader18 is effectively the article creator, as this was just a redirect before today. Zaathras (talk) 23:24, 8 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete She is not notable because she went to a coronation with her step grandmother and sat in a back row and is one of several grandchildren of a U.S. President. The flurry of attention is tied to a major event and will probably fade. Her older sister is arguably not notable either, but someone else can nominate that article for deletion. Bookworm857158367(talk) 23:04, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
 * She did more than "sit in a back row". She and the First Lady were the only two American delegates to attend, and it was the first time in history that members of the First Family attended a British coronation. Aside from that, she met with the British Prime Minister's wife at 10 Downing Street the day before the coronation and attended the Prime Minister's Big Coronation Lunch afterward, where she sat with the Prime Minister and his family. Also the day before the coronation, she met with the Princess of Wales during the foreign dignitaries reception at Buckingham Palace. It was a lot more than just sitting in a church pew. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 15:32, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
 * All this still doesn’t warrant a Wikipedia page. Meeting people and attending a event isn’t notable Unfriendnow (talk) 16:16, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Au contraire, receiving news coverage for meeting with world leaders would establish notability. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 16:20, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
 * People everyday meet world leaders and don’t have full Wikipedia pages. It makes more sense to put her in the Biden family wiki than to have her own. Unfriendnow (talk) 16:22, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I disagree. And the article covers more than just meeting with foreign dignitaries and world leaders. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 16:25, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah it covers something she did at her university which thousands of other people do every year and they don’t have a Wikipedia for it. She isn’t notable, she’s simply a president’s grandchild. Unfriendnow (talk) 16:27, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Can you provide backup for your claim that ‘’thousands of people successfully campaign for universities to change their policy ever year’’? The fact of the matter is, regardless if that claim is true (which I am highly doubtful), she received news coverage for that. While the initial interest may be because of her familial relations, the fact is she received media coverage for her actions, not ‘’just’’ her name. — Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 16:39, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
 * You can easily search up normal everyday students doing something that changes their university be it policy or otherwise and they don’t receive a Wikipedia page about it. Again the only reason she received the coverage of her “actions” is because of her name, nobody would care otherwise. This entire Wikipedia page exists because she is a presidential grandchild and not because of her activism. It doesn’t make her notable. Her being in the news because of a dress she wore at a coronation doesn’t make her notable. Also if this was about her activism the Wikipedia page should’ve been made a long time ago no? And not only when she attended an event with her step-grandmother who happens to be the First Lady? Unfriendnow (talk) 16:47, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
 * But that's just it, she did receive coverage. Be it because of her name, she still received coverage for her actions. Was that name a stepping-stone to coverage or notability? Sure. But she still received notable coverage. One could use the same argument against more than half of the royalty articles on Wikipedia, or other relatives of notable people who, by their relations, had a "leg up" (the Eisenhower granddaughters come to mind). -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 23:22, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Coverage isn't enough for a WP or everyone who is in the news cycle for more than a week would get a WP. Again most of those who are royalty or related to notable people have some sort of a career or did something actually notable within their own right. Again attending a couple of events and doing something at your university like thousands of other people doesn’t warrant someone a WP. Unfriendnow (talk) 17:33, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
 * “Attending a couple events” is basically what’s warranted notable coverage for royals. A staple of royalty is not having “some sort of career”, aside from patronages and attending events. With the exceptions of monarchs. Although that is all beside the point. It doesn't matter what the coverage is for, it matters that there is coverage in general. — Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 21:09, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Not every royal who attends events or does some sort of charity work has an WP that's my entire point. Only the prominent ones who actually have some sort of career or many patronages or whatever. Unfriendnow (talk) 17:56, 12 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Restore redirect: Just as we did with Barron Trump. Coverage is entirely superficial and does not demonstrate independent notability. Curbon7 (talk) 01:01, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Coverage of her involvement in Democratic campaigns, or leading student protests at U Penn, is superficial? -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 15:29, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Are you going to respond to every single !vote that isn't a keep? Curbon7 (talk) 23:10, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
 * It's a discussion... -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 23:17, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, but do keep WP:BLUDGEON in mind. Curbon7 (talk) 01:32, 10 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete: It should be deleted I agree. There are no wiki pages for Sasha and Malia Obama as far as I know and they were daughters of a president and not just one of many grandchildren. Her sister Naomi should go as well. Unfriendnow (talk) 03:31, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
 * This conversation is not about her sister, nor the Obama daughters. This is about Finnegan Biden. Stating that other grandchildren and children of presidents haven't had articles written on Wikipedia does not bring any weight into an argument to delete or redirect this article. And, for the record, grandchildren of presidents have had articles before on Wikipedia (i.e. Anne Eisenhower, Jennie Eisenhower, Lauren Bush). -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 15:27, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
 * All of those grandchildren actually have some sort of a career or did something actually notable within their own right. Attending a couple of events and doing something at your university like thousands of other people doesn’t warrant someone a wiki page. Unfriendnow (talk) 16:15, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Do "thousands of other people" lead successful campaigns to have an Ivy League university change its policy? Because that's what Biden did at the University of Pennsylvania. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 23:24, 9 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Move to draft Notability is not inherited although I will admit there is some potential here, having reliable sources (USA Today and Elle are examples). Just not enough to satisfy independent notability quite yet. Trillfendi (talk) 05:42, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
 * What about Joe Biden's activist granddaughter Finnegan could be an asset for White House if former VP wins presidency and Surpassing Deadlines: Finnegan Biden's Successful Campaign to Extend Pass/Fail (a story which also warranted an article in The Daily Pennsylvanian) ? Or this article in Grazia, which states, "'Finnegan Biden' is now a breakout search term"? -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 16:05, 9 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep. Notability is inherited from famous relatives. The press probably wouldn't pay her any attention if it weren't for her famous relatives, but they do cover her, which is all that WP:GNG looks at. pburka (talk) 16:56, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Your vote is literally, explicitly refuted by long-established project guidelines, i.e. that notability is NOT inherited. We could use this entry as an example at the target page, even. Zaathras (talk) 21:32, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Notability, on Wikipedia, is not inherited. But, notability from famous relatives may lead to media coverage which, on Wikipedia, does establish notability. The policy even states: The fact of having a famous relative is not, in and of itself, sufficient to justify an independent article. Individuals in close, personal relationships with famous people (including politicians) can have an independent article even if they are known solely for such a relationship, but only if they pass WP:GNG. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 23:23, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
 * This person does not pass the GNG, that is the problem, the coverage is exclusively due to her being a famous relative, in nearly every instance because she has physically been taken in tow with the elder Bidens to meetings, functions, and events. Al Gore III, Sasha Obama, and Malia Obama have all been covered much more extensively than the granddaughter of a president ever has been. All 3 of them fail WP:GNG as well. Zaathras (talk) 00:03, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
 * A quick google search didn't bring up much for me on Gore, besides arrests and work with Tesla. IMHO Malia Obama should have her own article, particularly after the coverage regarding her directorial and screenwriting work that came out last month. Not that this means anything with Biden, of course. That's just it though, she has received more coverage than say, Maisy Biden, who I agree does not qualify for WP:GNG. I believe Finnegan Biden does. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 00:07, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter what the coverage was "due to". What matters is that the coverage exists. Also note that NOTINHERITED isn't a policy. It's not even a guideline. It's just an essay. pburka (talk) 01:30, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
 * It does matter, hence the principle of WP:NOTINHERITED. Your opinion is your right, but according to established norms of the Wikipedia it is essentially worthless. Zaathras (talk) 01:43, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Could you, perhaps, quote the part of the essay (or a guideline or policy) which supports your position? pburka (talk) 02:11, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I, perhaps, already have. Pburka literally based their keep vote on "she inherits notability". Not figuratively, not obliquely. Literally. I pointed out that this is an invalid argument to keep an article. Zaathras (talk) 21:06, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
 * You claimed that the press coverage should be ignored because it "is exclusively due to her being a famous relative". That claim isn't supported by the essay, or any guideline or policy. Your argument is not policy-based. (I wouldn't say it's worthless, though; that would be WP:UNCIVIL.) pburka (talk) 21:17, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm really not sure how you're getting this so wrong here, and I can't help you get back on track. You make an argument to keep (Notability is inherited from famous relatives) that is explicitly not a reason we use to keep articles in the Wikipedia. There is no argument or wiggle room here for your position. Period. There will be no further replies on this tangent. Zaathras (talk) 21:25, 11 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Redirect to Family of Joe Biden Family_of_Joe_Biden - this appears to be an WP:INVALIDBIO due to the lack of significant coverage. Beccaynr (talk) 02:28, 11 May 2023 (UTC) - fix redirect target Beccaynr (talk) 14:06, 11 May 2023 (UTC) I have reviewed coverage below:
 * The student-run 34th Street Magazine coverage Surpassing Deadlines: Finnegan Biden's Successful Campaign to Extend Pass/Fail includes her description of her role in a campaign against her high school dress code, and her description of the outcome. This student news outlet does independently say she "led the push to extend the pass/fail deadline" and states she wrote the Change.org petition and notes the signatures received, and then links to another student newspaper for the part about the administration changing the deadline. This student newspaper, The Daily Pennsylvanian, describes in more detail the student organizations involved and the work they did with the administration, but before the change happened: Penn will consider pushing back April 13 pass/fail opt-in deadline after students petition.
 * I tried to find more about the Sidwell dress code and anything related to Biden's involvement, and found a 3-sentence blurb in the local Washingtonian: Everything You Need to Know About the New First and Second Families (2021) "She has also acquired a rep as The Activist Granddaughter after petitioning to change the grading policies at Penn and, as a DC high-schooler, organizing against the Sidwell Friends dress code." Town & Country quotes the 34th Street quote of Biden talking about herself and her role in the Sidwell protest in Who Is President Biden's Granddaughter Finnegan Biden? (2023)
 * The Washingtonian (2021) blurb noted above also states "She was the most visible Biden grandchild during the 2020 race, appearing at campaign stops and virtual phone-banking sessions." In a November 2020 Glamour source Meet Joe Biden's Granddaughters—Naomi, Finnegan, Maisy, and Natalie, she is briefly described as "a rising senior at Penn and has maintained a low profile, although she did attend a Biden campaign rally at Clarke University in Dubuque, Iowa." Town & Country (2023) noted above is mostly a photo gallery, and says "Her most prominent public appearance is, of course, King Charles's coronation".
 * Other Biden grandchildren listicles include A guide to the Biden grandchildren as they celebrate Thanksgiving in Nantucket (2022) - there are three sentences in her blurb, including an Instagram post from her sister Naomi.
 * Other recent photo galleries plus content about the coronation, what she wore, what Jill Biden wore, what Jill Biden did and tweeted, include Harper's Bazaar Finnegan Biden Steals the Show at King Charles III's Coronation (2023). There is also Today: Who is Finnegan Biden? Joe and Jill Biden's granddaughter is attending the coronation (2023) which seems to exemplify how insubstantial the available coverage currently is - she attended the coronation, Jill Biden was the first first lady to do so, they met various dignitaries. She previously appeared on the Today show in 2020 with other family members to talk about Biden's election. There is an explanation of where she fits in the family tree and where her name is from, she attended UPenn, and "Her efforts to extend pass/fail grading options were covered by a local newspaper" (linking to the student-run 34th Street) and "she's joined her grandparents on official duties, like a trip to Beijing while Joe Biden was vice president (that has come under scrutiny), on the campaign trail in 2020."
 * From my view, trivial coverage at minimum is expected because she is part of the Biden family and participates in family and some political events. But what she told a university newspaper, coverage in a university news outlet about a Change.org petition she created as part of a broad campaign to change a school grading deadline, brief blurbs in listicle-type coverage of the family generally, and photo galleries of what she recently wore to a particularly major event does not seem to be enough to support a standalone encyclopedia article at this time. Beccaynr (talk) 02:28, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
 * This would be appropriate too. Neither of the older granddaughters warrant a separate article based on the coverage above. I don’t know how many kids have fought against a school dress code or been politically active. Not notable. It will be if she successfully runs for national office herself or publishes a bestseller or the like. Bookworm857158367 (talk) 13:31, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Yet we have articles for the Biden's pets.. Commander, Major, Champ, and Willow all warrant their own articles but not his human granddaughters? I mean if we want to talk about WP:NOTINHERITED, then what have the (many) presidential pets who have articles done to achieve notability worthy of an encyclopedia aside from their, er, relation(?) to a president? There are currently 19 articles on presidential dogs and 3 articles on presidential cats. Are all of them more notable than a president's granddaughter who has met with world leaders? -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 13:36, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
 * This is a biography of a living person, which "must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy", and based on my review of sources, it appears that other than the student-run outlet 34th Street, sources such as the Washingtonian and Today are more conservative in their descriptions of her high school and college activism, and Glamour describes her as "low profile" in 2020. Without what seems to be an WP:UNDUE focus on details about her recent appearance at the coronation, there does not appear to be much independent content available from reliable sources. And maybe articles about Biden pets should be condensed into one article, but that is not currently up for discussion. Beccaynr (talk) 13:57, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
 * The dogs and cat don’t warrant separate articles either. There should be one article called Pets of U.S. Presidents that includes the various pets of all the assorted Presidents that got attention. Bookworm857158367 (talk) 14:20, 11 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Redirect to Family_of_Joe_Biden. Although the article is loaded with references - 40 of them - most of them consist of a passing mention of her, such as in an article about a trip where she went along, or a report in a non-mainstream source about what she wore to something. Wait until she does something actually notable and gets actual coverage about her as an individual. -- MelanieN (talk) 16:32, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree, either Redirect it or delete. Unfriendnow (talk) 17:56, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Family_of_Joe_Biden per MelanieN. --Tserton (talk) 20:07, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Family_of_Joe_Biden. Too soon - her life consists of traveling around with her famous family. The Education and activism section is not notably different from the average person her age. — Maile (talk) 20:22, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Family_of_Joe_Biden per MelanieN. A. Randomdude0000 (talk) 22:00, 13 May 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.