Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Finney Ross


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Though a citation from Blade magazine has been promised, it doesn't seem to have actually been found. As Mike said, this article has had three years, plus the seven days since being nommed for deletion. Consensus shows that, although there may be one citation somewhere, as it stands now this article should be deleted. If needed, I am willing to userfy for someone to try to improve it. – GorillaWarfare talk • contribs 00:12, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Finney Ross

 * – ( View AfD View log )

Originally placed through PROD and contested post-deletion. Appears to fail WP:BIO. SchuminWeb (Talk) 23:42, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
 * STRONG DELETE As coordinator of Wikiproject:Cutlery I try to improve, source, and cleanup every knife, blade, sword, and knifemaker article on wikipedia. Being an avid collector of knives and swords for 35 years and an Honorary Guild Member; I have never heard of Mr. Ross.  I have a veritable library of knife related books going back over 200 years and an enormous archive of cutlery publications going back to the 1960s:  (American Blade, Blade Magazine, Knives Illustrated, Fighting Knives, Tactical Knives, Knife Trade) and newsletters from the Knifemakers' Guild, American Blade Smith Society, Randall Knife Collectors Association, Case Collectors Club, Emerson Collectors Club, etc.  I went through every written source there is.  I even checked the gun magazines and books.  I can find no mentionof Mr Ross.  I am sure he made some nice knives and leather in his day, but simply nothing of note has ever been published about him.  Beyond that, even if he were mentioned in an issue of Blade, he appears to have left no legacy upon the cutlery world.  As much as I hate to vote to delete the hard work of others or even a piece that is knife-related, I cannot support keeping this article unless verifiable sources ensuring his notability can be found.  When trying to "save" the article last time, the only two sources that were reliable indicated that the man was born and that he died.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 01:48, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete. I can find nothing to back up the claims in the article, neither about leathersmithing nor about knives.  Only Wikipedia mirrors. --Arxiloxos (talk) 03:34, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Time to be able to aquire citations. Being from the 50's. 60's and 70's ...it will take a bit to aquire them. T. Kiefer Davis Vintagedirtbiker (talk) 04:42, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
 * You've had three years to do that and it wasn't done. I've scoured the internet and my personal library as mentioned above to try to improve this thing and found nothing.  I wish you luck, all the same.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 05:34, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Mike, I may have had 3 years but the only 2 citations needed that were on the original post were his death, which I did cite, and Jimmy Lile, which I posted his website and was told I can't do that because it was Glorifying. Look ... I'm doing good to be able just to send an email. I don't know all this "code" stuff that you want me to insert. I find it sad that a regular person is not allowed to put something on Wikipedia unless they know how to write some kind of code. They even want a citation for the P.R.C.A. ... like it doesn't exist.
 * I have the Blade magazine where he is featured. I have all sorts of pictures where he received awards from the R.C.A. and news stories of the same. Do I scan those and post the pictures? Someone PLEASE just talk to me like I'm 6 (without all the "code talk") and tell me what I'm supposed to do and how to do it. Like I said before, the history of the R.C.A. and old time rodeo is fading.

Your own administrator posted this: Hello and thank you for participating in Wikipedia. It looks like you got a pretty rough welcome! The standard mantra is Don't bite the newbies but that's theory and not always practice. But it looks like you've survived the onslaught and so has your article on Finney Ross. As an administrator, I am able to delete articles (and undelete them, even deleted articles are available to administrator accounts and deletion can be overturned) and in my evaluation, the article did not deserve deletion. But as I noted, it needed cleanup the the tone was inappropriately glorifying. User Dominik92 (talk · contribs) has already done an extensive cleanup: he has removed much of the material but this does not mean that you can't re-add it if you do so carefully and if you make sure that the article remains neutral in tone. Also, it's always good to make sure that most (if not all) of the material included is properly sourced so that it can be verified by other readers. I've also added categories to the article, which means there's a greater chance that others will access it and possibly help in its development. Cheers, Pascal.Tesson (talk) 19:39, 29 March 2008 (UTC) I apologize if I seem a little brash, but Mike, unless you have gone to the library and gone through micro films, you have not done the research needed for this article. You have merely searched the internet. Not everything of importance is on the internet, although I know of plenty of people that firmly believe that if it's not on the internet, it didn't exist or happen. Mike, I appreciate you being a cutlery aficinato, but you are far from a vintage rodeo expert. So to the point: Do I go to the libraries and print out all the stories about him, then scan them (along with all the info and pictures that I have) and post them on this article? Someone PLEASE just tell me in simple English, how to go about doing this? Thanks, T. Kiefer Davis Vintagedirtbiker (talk) 14:19, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
 * With regard to Blade, what is the volume, issue, month, year, pages the article is on, title of the article, and author of the article. You don't need to scan it, we can assume good faith, but that other information will proove what you are saying, although one article in Blade is not enough to address notability.  As far as having to go look up microfilm or microfiche, that really does raise questions of notability.  No, I have not "merely searched the internet", as I wrote earlier...I have a personal library of several hundred books on knives and knifemaking.  I have boxes of knife magazines going back to the 1960s.  MR Ross aint in any of them...I can honestly say I've been written about in more magazines than this guy!  This was brought to my attention because he was listed as a knifemaker.  One who only made knives for two years, at that.  As for what you did before regarding sources...you linked to the Jimy Lile site.  Well that might be ok if you were citing an article on Jimmy Lile, not this guy, and furthermore the Lile website contains no mention of Ross, not even a picture.  Nobody is asking for a cite to prove the PRCA exists, but to prove that this guy actually made stuff for them or whatever his relationship is.  Your links and cites earlier had no mention of Ross it was like you were just saying the other stuff existed.  If the sources were there, you'd be finding me writing "Strong Support", but as to this point in time, you have not demonstrated his notability.  I find it curious that no modern saddlery books mention him either for what you are claiming regarding his impact, hell William Scagel died 20 years before Finney and they still write things about him.  Bottom line if it's a book you get the title, author, publisher, isbn, page numbers where he is mentioned, where book was published.  magazine: title of article, journal in which it appeared, volume, pages, issie, author, same with newspaper only you'd need day and date. This isn't rocket surgery and no one is asking you to write code.  I'll help you out with formatting the sources, myself.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 14:44, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 16:59, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

You state: "As far as having to go look up microfilm or microfiche, that really does raise questions of notability."

Nothing NEW has been written about thousands of notable people. But they are still here on Wikipedia.

Like I stated, this was the 50's, 60's and 70's. So a few minutes ago, I went to the Houston Post where he was written about for 20 years, and it's been absorbed into the Houston Chronicle. I went to their site to pull up archived stories and it will only allow you to search back to 1985. http://search.chron.com/chronicle/archiveSearch.do Same with the Dallas Morning News and many more major and minor newspapers around Texas and Oklahoma.

I understand your hesitation about his knife business as he did not have a long legacy in that venue. But as far as the R.C.A. is concerned, I will not relent.

I was there during his entire leathersmithing career. From the first saddle's presented to Casey Tibbs for "All 'Round Cowboy" in 1951 to Jim Shoulders when Jim won his first "All 'Round Cowboy" championship in 1956 (and a slew of others) including Larry Mahan who is still living and speaks of Ross's works to this day. Many of the old cowboys inducted into the Rodeo Cowboy Hall of Fame demanded Ross's works. Do we need letters from them?

The most famous picture of Jim Shoulders, shows Ross's bull rope, flank strap and chaps made for Jim. http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.paregien.net/Articles/Shoulders-Jim/1957-Shoulders-Jim%252002.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.paregien.net/Articles/Shoulders-Jim/JimShoulders.html&usg=__l6krVrrMauUL2XgiZezn4UjULeY=&h=359&w=300&sz=37&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=AXywvnh0AxHLpM:&tbnh=122&tbnw=104&ei=LESfTcq5LcPPiALN4rjxAg&prev=/search%3Fq%3Djim%2Bshoulders%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26rlz%3D1T4GGLJ_enUS248US248%26biw%3D1166%26bih%3D500%26tbm%3Disch%26prmd%3Divns&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=578&oei=LESfTcq5LcPPiALN4rjxAg&page=1&ndsp=22&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0&tx=78&ty=91

Scroll down and you'll see Jim on Ross's bareback saddle and flank strap. (Not to be confused with a saddle bronc saddle).

See Ross's works and chaps on "Tornado" when Freckles Brown rode the un-ridable bull in 1967 with a score of 99.

The list is endless from Oklahoma to Texas for 30 years. Even making chaps and protective breast plates for famous "Clowns" (today known as bull-fighters in the rodeo arena) such as Jacko Garrett. Garrett was the only clown in the R.C.A. known to protect his fallen rider by jumping body first onto the face of the bull, wrapping his legs around the bulls nose and his arms around the bulls neck. This action caused the full weight of Garrett to be hanging from the bulls head, which tired the bull in a matter of seconds.

Ross was also a prolific rancher raising prized Polled Herefords (Herefords with no horns) and Quarter Horses. He was featured in Western Horseman and American Quarter Horse Magazines. He was the owner of "Whizoto" the number one quarter horse stud in 1959 with a "Live Foal" stud fee of $5,000.00. He sold Whizoto at the Haymaker Sale in Oklahoma in 1961 for $100,000.00. I didn't put this information in the article because I felt it wasn't relevant.

I have been honest, respectful and courteous with you. You in turn have used unacceptable language with me, i.e. "hell William Scagel", and berated me by telling me "this isn't Rocket Surgery".

I don't know if your need to berate people and use language that isn't necessary fills some sort of void for you. But you felt the need to do it, none-the-less.

So again I will ask you POLITELY, if archives only go back to 1985, how am I to verify this information? The boxes of newspaper and magazine articles I have are cut out. In the 50's and 60's that's what people normally did, cut out the article and paste them inside a scrap book. Like I said, I can scan them and post them.

I still have his 2 year "waiting list" for knives. (A mediocre knife maker does not have a 2 year waiting list.) But like I said, I'm not concerned with the knife making part being kept on Wikipedia.

T. Kiefer Davis Vintagedirtbiker (talk) 18:50, 8 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Response. First, please put your new comments at the bottom of the page; that way, all readers can follow the discussion.


 * Second, if I understand correctly, this article may be what Wikipedia classifies as original research: that is, "material—such as facts, allegations, ideas, and stories—for which no reliable published source exists", including "any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position not advanced by the sources."  Wikipedia doesn't publish original research (see: What Wikipedia is not; we collect and organize what other reliable sources (such as newspapers and books) have to say on the subject.  In other words, while Finney Ross may have indeed made many beautiful leatherworks for notable rodeo stars, we can't have a Wikipedia article based on just that.  What we're looking for are books and articles about Finney Ross and his career.  The sources don't have to be online.  If there are articles like that in the scrapbook, what we need to know are the names and dates of the newspapers, and what they say. But we can't create an article based only on pictures of people using his works (especially if, as with the Jim Shoulders picture, Ross isn't mentioned by name).  I hope this is helpful. --Arxiloxos (talk) 20:34, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment - I'm not berating you or disrespecting you. I do apologize if you were offended by the use of my term "H-E-Double Hockeysticks", but to take a "rocket surgery" quote out of context is a bit much; then again some people have no sense of humor and cannot tell when someone is merely trying to lighten the mood; in otherwords if a broken down former boxer/Marine/cowboy like myself can do this stuff, ANYONE can do it.  A two year wait on a custom knife is nothing, Randall Made Knives are production pieces and their wait right know is pushed out to 2016(that's 5 years for a factory-made knife).  Makers such as Ernest Emerson and Ken Onion have waiting times in excess of 10 years. William F. Moran's, Jimmy Lile's, and Bob Loveless' waiting list were well in excess of that.  I know a maker and Guild member who has a 5+ year wait, makes some of the most beautiful folding knives I've ever seen, has had numerous factory collaborations, writeups in 10 times the number of knife magazines that Ross may have ever had, and he has to work at WalMart to feed his family and get health insurance.  All that said, if you have stuff related to his knifemaking ability, bring it forward.  If your scrapbook has the required information on his saddlery, let's see it...now I don't mean to literally  scan it and post it, but provide the names of where you got it, who wrote it, when/where it was published, etc.  Just like Arxiloxos says above, this is not the venue for original research.  Again, I will be more than happy to change my vote and format your sources if you wish as long as you provide reliable third party references.  Was there an obituary published about him?  That may be a good starting point as obits on notable people tend to contain a good basic overview of their life's work and if published in a newspaper are a reliable source in and of themselves.  I don't mean a two-liner "Beloved father, devoted husband and successful cattleman who ran a leathershop", but one that's several paragraphs in length.  We're here to help you, but if you insist on throwing up barriers to sourcing your own article and its claims, there's not much we can do to help you.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 21:01, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Arxiloxos, My apologies, I didn't know replies are to go at the bottom. Thank you for your input. It makes more sense to me now. Here is what I will do. I will remove all reference to Ross being a knife maker. As I said, that was such a small part of his venue. Thus ends the debate on that subject.
 * Dude, you said you have a Blade article on him; that's a source, that's enough to say he was a knifemaker. If you can give me that much, you can include it, especially if he learned from Lile; I think you're missing the point.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 21:55, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

However, I will go through 30 years of articles, and post what I find with the name of the source and the date. I know for a fact that those are all posted with each article, i.e. "Houston Post Feb. 1, 1950".T. Kiefer DavisVintagedirtbiker (talk) 21:41, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Again, that part is done for you, you just need to post it.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 21:55, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Please allow me time for this. Since your FIRST administrator told me the article was good (see above) and he was allowing it to stay, I did not know there was more to be done until this debacle.T. Kiefer DavisVintagedirtbiker (talk) 21:41, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
 * There was one questionable source saying Ross was dead, that's definitely not enough.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 21:55, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Mike, suffering for many years from Aphasia due to a brain injury, your response of "anyone" can do this can sometimes be totally untrue. Never assume. It takes me hours to compose an email. A lot of the time I have my wife write as I "try" to verbalize and dictate. So no, Mike, not everyone can do this.T. Kiefer DavisVintagedirtbiker (talk) 21:41, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
 * OK call me a liar, I don't really care; just don't waste my time is all I ask.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 21:55, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand your attitude Mike. I explain to you that I have a brain injury and you take it as an attack on your character? As far as your decision to go through 30 years of Blade magazine and me wasting your time, that's a bit of an oxymoron don't you think? I'll be happy to find it in the trunks I have, and give you the exact magazine, with page number. It's the only full magazine I saved because it was the issue with Stallone on the cover. I'm gettin weary of this rediculous battle with you. I honestly don't understand your problem. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vintagedirtbiker (talk • contribs) 22:17, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I know that issue...June 1983, just need title of the article, author and page number; thanks.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 00:21, 9 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete Looked in google books and on google.com and saw nothing. Are we missing something? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jtbobwaysf (talk • contribs) 17:12, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Not that I can tell. I, too searched google books, news, and everything on line where I found nothing at all beyond wikimirrors.  I checked through all my Knife mags and books during the time this guy was alive and came up blank.  Then I went to the old issues of Gun Digest...zip.  The only other Ross Leather company I know of is out of South Africa and they make holsters.  I found 2 other Ross Saddlery Companies, one in Indiana (Incorporated since 1959), the other in Kansas. The article's creator claims he has an issue of BladeMagazine that mentions Ross as a knifemaker, I asked for the article title, author, and page numbers and have not heard back.  He claims he has a disability, so it might take him a while.  Find-a-Grave has some info, but it is not considered a reliable source.  This article should have been Speedied, It sat for over 3 years with no sources, had a Prod tag for a while and was ressurected from deletion with still no meaningful work done to it.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 18:14, 12 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete, per Mike's argument and research. We all do something with our lives, there's nothing to it - frankieMR (talk) 22:23, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete as per Mike above. - SudoGhost (talk) 18:10, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.