Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Finnic countries


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to Estonia–Finland relations.  Sandstein  11:04, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Finnic countries

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There's no such concept. Therefore, there are very few if any academic sources that could back it up. It fails WP:QUESTIONABLE, WP:RSSELF and WP:UGC. Looks more like a personal opinion with the references pointing to personal blogs or forum entries. – Sabbatino (talk) 23:37, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
 * As the creator of the page, I object:


 * The references point to university publications or political history. This reference points to the letter of the President of Estonia Konstantin Päts to the Finnish embassy. This reference points to professor Tiit-Rein Viitso and the accreditation of Finnic studies in the University of Latvia. This reference from the University of Vienna uses the term "finnic states" This reference points to a scientific conference. This reference points to a book from 1911. This reference points to a library trace of a book with the term as it's title (soomesugu). This reference points to prime minister Andrus Ansip's talk in the Finnish embassy. JonSonberg (talk) 00:19, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Four references don't even mention "Finnic countries", but are about archaic Estonian expression "soome sugu", which roughly translates to "Finnish/Finnic race" and probably means Baltic Finns. And it stands alone, not in wording "soome sugu countries" (as far I can access sources). Viitso uses expression "non-Finnic countries" and Laakso "Finnic states" and "Finnic countries". Both use those words casually, without any further discussion and it's meaning can only be guessed from context. So it doesn't met General notability guideline criteria: "Significant coverage" addresses the topic directly and in detail, so that no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention. --Minnekon (talk) 13:34, 22 December 2016 (UTC)


 * If a page that lists islands by the front letter B exists in wikipedia, then Finnic countries obviously has the right to exist as well. The word Finnic exists and there are only two Finnic countries in the world. JonSonberg (talk) 00:24, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Lists and articles about phenomena are fundamentally different things. Lists just list phemomena to make them more easy to find for readers, they don't discuss subjects. Potentially it is possible to turn current article into "List of Finnic countries", but it would be rather short list and it would require criterion of inclusion, that should come from reliable source, not just be made up. --Minnekon (talk) 13:34, 22 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Google Books results from the URL above JonSonberg (talk) 01:00, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Another casual mention of "Finnic countries" from 1909 book with apparently (I can't access full content) no further discussion what is meant by that. Definitely not modern states of Estonia and Finland as suggested by current version of article, because this segment of book is about prehistoric or medieval period. --Minnekon (talk) 13:34, 22 December 2016 (UTC)


 * The wikipedia article Baltic Finns also mentions Finnic states in the abstract. Finnic states vs Finnic countries? I don't care but I personally think that "states" refer to political areas inside a federation or union. "Countries" is a better term. JonSonberg (talk) 01:19, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Sourceless expression from another Wiki article is not reliable source. --Minnekon (talk) 13:34, 22 December 2016 (UTC)


 * There is a lot to write about the Finnic countries. It is unfair to tag an article for deletion a day after it's creation. They operate together in the middle east, they fund finnic and finno-ugric research together, they support the finno-ugric minorities living inside the borders of Russia, they fund joint Finnic medical research and run medical exchanges. Which can all be written about on this page. Then again "Finnic countries" is not the same as Finland-Estonia relations, because the countries also operate independently from one another, but for the same cause. JonSonberg (talk) 01:26, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Before detailed description of various activities of Finland and Estonia we need to identify that there really is notable concept of "Finnic countries" and then that those activities are connected to that concept. --Minnekon (talk) 13:34, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
 * In addition to all university research references, the president of one of the countries using the term "soomesugu riigid" is notable enough. JonSonberg (talk) 18:20, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Any expression used by some head of state can be turned into article? How exactly it passes Notability requirements? But anyway, who is this president and where he says that, so we could assess it? If it's supposed to be above-mentioned letter from Konstantin Päts, then could you please provide whole sentence where it's mentioned, because I'm not able to find expression "soomesugu riigid" not by reading nor by word search. --Minnekon (talk) 20:14, 22 December 2016 (UTC)


 * The Helsinki to Tallinn Tunnel will unite the two Finnic capitals into a common Finnic economic region JonSonberg (talk) 01:36, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Deletion would go against the Wiki philosophy of Inclusionism JonSonberg (talk) 03:30, 22 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Redirect to Baltic Finns, which seems to be the recognized version of this concept. I did a search of both JSTOR and Google News, and neither showed anything.  Google Books showed a couple results, but I don't think those few results can demonstrate notability. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 04:29, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
 * But how can Baltic Finns be the same as Finnic countries and their cooperation? Because Baltic Finns talks about people not countries. It's like swedes vs. the nordic countries. JonSonberg (talk) 04:48, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
 * The Baltic Finns article itself says and I quote: "The bulk of the Baltic Finns are ethnic Finns and Estonians (more than 98%), who reside in the only two independent Finnic nation states – Finland and Estonia". Yes there should be a Finnic states / Finnic countries article. And I have also pointed to university references above and in the article. JonSonberg (talk) 07:40, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Isn't the president of one of the countries using the term notable enough? JonSonberg (talk) 07:49, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
 * One person claiming some fringe theory is totally not enough. 100 articles about this would mean it has some value, but not now when main sources are blogs or forum entries, which are not acceptable by Wikipedia standards (this also applies to your other edits in other articles). – Sabbatino (talk) 21:11, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Merge To Estonia–Finland relations which covers the exact same topic that this article aims to. I also couldn't find use of the term "Finnic countries" in Google, but Finland and Estonia have historically had very close relations, and many elements of their national cultures and languages are similar. Nick-D (talk) 00:33, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree that it should be merged as it's a concept pretty much made up by the creator of the article and just has stuff copied from other articles. – Sabbatino (talk) 21:11, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
 * This would be acceptable, too. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 08:28, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Merge to Estonia–Finland relations; although the name "Finnic countries" has been essentially made up by the creator of the article, the concept is essentially merely a derivation of the idea of commonalities between Estonia and Finland (i.e., similar linguistic features, as referenced to in Finnic languages, and associated peoples). Few, if any, significant academic references to the concept "Finnic nations" in comparison to the aforementioned articles. Mélencron (talk) 00:34, 29 December 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.