Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Finnish Anti-Fascist Committee


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus.  MBisanz  talk 04:56, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Finnish Anti-Fascist Committee

 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

Not notable enough. I visit all major Finnish newspaper websites daily, and I've never heard of this organisation eventhough I know all the news subjects this is covering. It is not a registered organisation either, which is not much demanded. All it has is a blog and one moderately famous member. Shouldn't that biographical article cover this as well? I clicked all the links in the article I could, but didn't find a mention of this "organisation", only about events it is described to relate here. So it is unsure if it's more than just a blog and "organisation" of the same level as LAN video game players of the local village. Pudeo⺮ 11:25, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete as nominator. --Pudeo⺮ 11:32, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Merge to Johan Bäckman. Colchicum (talk) 11:54, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Merge to Johan Bäckman. Agree with Colchium Alex Bakharev (talk) 12:49, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Merge to Backman article. as per others --Russavia Dialogue 13:36, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep. AfD is not a place to debate merge (this should be done later and separately). A person (Backman) and an organization (the Committee) are obviously two different things. It is sourced.Biophys (talk) 14:10, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I am not debating merge but deletion of a rubbish article. This article is of a blog and a unregistered "committee", that the Internet is full of. It is not notable, while Bäckman just and just is. If Bäckman writes the blog of the "commitee", it doesn't make it significant when the person itself is on the edge of being notable enough for an entry. By the way, a few Counter-Strike LAN boys were featured in one major newspaper that is based in the city as well, and their organisation is even a registered one (ry) unlike this.
 * Juridically, this organisation is on the same level as a 10 year olds' own mafia with plastic weapons as it is unregistered. And when the only activity is a simple generic blog, well.. --Pudeo⺮ 15:41, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * @Biophys - While AfD is not the place to discuss merging, after an article has been nominated for deletion, other editors can suggest a merge as a valid outcome to the AfD. You can think of it as a variant of "keep" in that the article is kept with the condition that it be merged. — LinguistAtLarge • Talk  16:06, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Agree.Biophys (talk) 22:33, 4 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep. While many of the actions that made this Committee notable tie indeed to Johan Bäckman, not all of them are of this kind.  For example, the very highly hyped so-called "Nashi" protest in Helsinki a few weeks ago -- the event that became crucial in deciding Articles for deletion/Johan Bäckman (2nd nomination) as keep only a few days ago -- was formally a Safka event, together with a Safka press conference in the kitchen of a nearby block of flats. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 14:21, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Finland-related deletion discussions.  -- Russavia Dialogue 16:05, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions.  -- Russavia Dialogue 16:05, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions.  -- Russavia Dialogue 16:06, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete. A publicity stunt by Bäckman. Finnish Wikipedia deleted this article already. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Peltimikko (talk • contribs) 17:00, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * True. Unfortunately, a notable publicity stunt. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 19:07, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Where? It's a Finnish organization and I can't find any sources in Finnish. I went through all the links in the article. All I could find is their rather comical blog. Maybe it's just your Estonia―Russia battles. But we others are quite fed up with these fights. The links in the article are about Nashi and/or Bäckman, not about this. --Pudeo⺮ 22:30, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Please keep it civil. If one does a google search on the term "Suomen Antifasistinen Komitea" and sift through the results, one finds several references in the Finnish media here,here,here and here. The question is whether it is sufficiently notable according or Wikipedia criteria not. Do we have a source that states it is publicity stunt? That source would be useful here. Martintg (talk) 01:09, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Those were mostly about Nashi (well the third source had quite nicely about this one as well). Well, Helsingin Sanomat's expert calls the demostration that all those weirdos made as "an attempt by a marginal group to get publicity." . But there as well it's mostly about Nashi, Finnish Anti-Fascist Committee has never been the main subject of the news article but a minor subject to Nashi. But remember that sources, even not that convincing in this case,  does not mean something is notable. --Pudeo⺮ 08:41, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * One article that specifically deals the Committee is Ärileht 27 March 2009: Stalinism sünnib Soomes uueti by Heiki Suurkask. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 10:37, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * A peculiar aspect of the Committee is that it is more famous in Russia and Estonia than in Finland. Strange but true. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 10:38, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The protest organized by the Committee was highly notable in Finland. One indication of this is that now, two weeks after the protest, it is still on the front page of the Uusi Suomi on-line news paper. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 19:24, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * P.S. - Here is one news item that is not about the "Nashi demostration" or about Johan Backman. For some reason it made number 4 spot on the list of most read items for the week on Uusi Suomi. I do not know whether this was because it mentioned Jussi Halla-aho or because it was the first mention of the "retroactive zero-option" in the press. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 19:51, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Do you understand Finnish? Those are not analyzed news, they are just brief news flashes and probably based on Suomen Tietotoimisto news release based by Bäckman's release . And those are dated before everyone saw that "The Emperor Wears No Clothes". Peltimikko (talk) 10:00, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I could be convinced, but I'm not so sure at this stage. Maybe this article could be merged into the Johan Backman article if it is a publicity stunt. However there is an AfD Articles for deletion/Estonian Anti-Fascist Committee ongoing, that article would seem to be even less notable than this article, yet at this stage it looks like it is headed for a "Keep". Martintg (talk) 18:43, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Although the committee does not have entry in the Finnish Wikipedia, the activities of the committee and its members have received wide coverage:
 * The protest organized by the committee was featured in the news section on the front page of Finnish Wikipedia, with illustration.
 * fi:Leena Hietanen
 * fi:Viron kylmä sota (book)
 * fi:Johan Bäckman
 * fi:Pronssisoturi: Viron patsaskiistan tausta ja sisältö (book)
 * fi:Saatana saapuu Helsinkiin (book)
 * fi:Johan Beckman Institute (update, 6 April 2009)
 * -- Petri Krohn (talk) 00:54, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes. These people and books are worth of articles. The three-person Committee do not. Peltimikko (talk) 07:05, 6 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep Apparently sufficient sources. DGG (talk) 20:02, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep, the committee is more than just Johan Bäckman, there are other members too, so merging with that article won't do. There are few news items in the Finnish and Estonian media, but the real audience of the committees activities appears to be Russia, given the coverage documented in Talk:Finnish_Anti-Fascist_Committee, so it is definitely notable in Russia Martintg (talk) 21:08, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete. That's not a committee, just the three of them. You don't hear about them next week and you don't remember the week after. --87.94.227.247 (talk) 10:53, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Anonymous users are not allowed to vote. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 00:39, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Anonymous users can indeed vote. -- Martintg (talk) 04:12, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep - Although this artilcle was created by my long-time nemesis, I must agree that international media coverage establishes notability. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 01:10, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment: A person named "Petri Krohn" is a member of the Committee of three persons. Peltimikko (talk) 07:05, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Even spokesperson, it seems. See  for Petri Krohn reading the Committee's manifesto in a press conference. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 07:52, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * And historian too, apparently. Google translate is a bit flakey, perhaps Petri could translate Petri Krohn's article about this secret SS Gladio style organisation hiding Chinese AK47s under their beds waiting for the order to neutralise their ideological opponents. I'd like to add it to the article. Martintg (talk) 08:40, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes. It seems he is approaching the threshold of notability for wiki. -- Miacek and his crime-fighting dog ( woof! ) 15:20, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah great, just what we need, another article where the usual suspects can engage in egregious WP:BLP violations and original research. Regardless, has User:Petri Krohn confirmed if he is this person? He is under no obligation to do so, so discussion on his identity is entirely inappropriate, and may constitute WP:OUTING. --Russavia Dialogue 19:44, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * We are talking about Petri Krohn the SAFKA member. The only one associating this person to User:Petri Krohn in this thread is you. Martintg (talk) 20:49, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Well of course am, after you changed what you wrote above, where you clearly wrote perhaps Petri could elaborate on his discovery of this secret SS Gladio organisation. I honestly can't believe you would think people would be so stupid as to 1) not notice your change and 2) believe that you have not made that link yourself, like you did at User_talk:Alex_Bakharev/Archive23. WP:OUTING is a serios form of harrassment, and User:Petri Krohn is under no obligation to confirm or deny if this is him, and unless he links to such material himself, you are engaging in a egregious form of harrassment. Pull shit like that again Martintg, and I will alert an admin to it, although I would advise Petri to do so himself now. --Russavia Dialogue 21:05, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Let's see if I get it right: you're claiming that it's a violation of WP:OUTING to say, in public, that Petri Krohn is Petri Krohn? You might not have noticed that the very first userbox at User:Petri Krohn states: "This user's name is Petri Krohn.". ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 14:09, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Are you insinuating that somebody completely unrelated might have improperly taken the moniker of User:Petri Krohn? Because if that's the case, WP:U might require that he do something about it, perhaps even that the account be turned over to the real Mr. Krohn.  ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 22:36, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I am not insinuating anything. You guys are the ones doing all the insinuating, and it is a form of harrassment, particularly when the user rightly doesn't respond to it. It is off-wiki, and has nothing to do with editors on wiki, so I would suggest you let what you are doing drop. --Russavia Dialogue 22:42, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * You are insinuating that my request for assistance to transalate an article as an attempt to out User:Petri Krohn, you even called my clarification a "bald face liar" in the edit comment, that is a personal attack and an assumption of bad faith. Please cease and desist from your WP:BATTLE behaviour. REALNAME policy is quite clear: "If you share the same name as a well known person, or you are a well known person, and you wish to edit under your own name, then your userpage should make it clear whether you actually are the well known person or not. Usernames that appear to violate this policy to the extent of being problematic are likely to be blocked, as a precaution, until it can be confirmed that the user in question is using his or her real name". Martintg (talk) 22:58, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I tell you what Martintg, I'll stop feeding you trolls. Petri Krohn is not a well known person (regardless of the redirect that people rushed to create). I don't know how many times you have to be told discussion of editors real-life identities, and in such a way as you wrote perhaps Petri could elaborate on his discovery of this secret SS Gladio organisation can constitute outting and harrassment of editors. You only changed this to a suggestion to translate after I pointed out that discussion of people's real life identities can constitute harrassment. Blind freddy can see that for themselves. Anyone can claim anything on the internet, hell, you can claim you have a clue, it doesn't make it true. --Russavia Dialogue 23:21, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Repeating the same old insinuations again, this time peppered with the incivility "you trolls". Thank you for that. Martintg (talk) 23:43, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Whoops. A clear violation of Thou shalt not discuss the ruler of the evil empire editing Wikipedia. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 12:06, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * By the way, our friend is as wrong as usual. A self-published ukaz is by no means a reliable source for anything other than its own content. Colchicum (talk) 14:42, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * In English Petri could elaborate on his discovery doesn't necessarily imply that it was Petri's discovery and not a discovery by some other third person singular male. I understand that Russavia would love to see outing here, but amazing though they are, allegations of outing produced by the well-known outer are not very plausible. Petri Krohn has not hidden his identity so far. Colchicum (talk) 14:36, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I thought it was a typo, and should have been "elaborate on this discovery". ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 15:55, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * On the question of identity, we have Andres Kahar, the Canadian journalist and Andres Kahar, the Kaitsepolitseiamet inspector. Can we say on Wikipedia that they are one and the same person? -- Petri Krohn (talk) 16:12, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * But there isn't a User:Andres Kahar. You need to indicate on your user page if you are "Petri Krohn" of SAFKA or not, per WP:USERNAME. Martintg (talk) 20:49, 7 April 2009 (UTC)


 * For your enjoyment: Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Finnish Anti-Fascist Committee. ...and maybe you should continue this off-topic discussion there. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 11:40, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * To Russavia: "I tell you what Martintg, I'll stop feeding you trolls...." Your histrionic personal attacks are becoming quite tiresome. As I understand the WP rules, if your name is one that is known, you need to indicate on your user page whether or not you are that person, plain and simple. It's not up to you, Russavia, to decide if Petri is obscure or not. It's not up to you, Russavia, to decide whether a person's association with the FAFC is obscure or not. Petri is well known on WP with a long-standing history. Whether or not our Petri here is the same Petri as associated with the committee is his WP obligation to indicate on his user page, plain and simple. PetersV     TALK 03:21, 10 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Weak keep -- Miacek and his crime-fighting dog ( woof! ) 14:58, 6 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.