Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Firma (supporter group)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. Has been substantially edited, if still deemed problematic a new nomination would be required.  Sandstein  05:49, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Firma (supporter group)

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Much of the content in this article isn't actually about the group "firma", what there is, is promotional in tone and suggests no notability, and the article is entirely unsourced Jac 16888  Talk 09:19, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions.&#9733;&#9734; DUCK IS JAMMMY &#9734;&#9733; 11:01, 18 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete - no evidence of notability; if sources can be found then rredirect to FK Vojvodina. GiantSnowman 12:27, 18 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep - I'll edit and improve the page. In addition, the club was one of the best clubs of the former Yugoslavia and on of the best known supporter groups. I see many reasons and also notability. Every bigger supporter group has his own article on wikipedia. The club is also today one of the best clubs on the Balkan and the Firma on of the best known supporter groups. Also they support many other sport sections. The article is not finished and its not true that the content is only about the club. Again, the article is not ready. In few days there will be ready. There's very much relevant and importent things to write. There are also many other supporter goups who also have articles on wikipedia . There are a lot of other articles wiht less relevance than this here. I see no problem. A little patience please.--Nado158 (talk) 12:43, 18 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete - all cites are either to the football club's website, which only mention "Firma" in passing, if at all, or to the fansite primary source. (Although I admit I'm scanning, not reading Serbian). The entire article is promotional fluff, and with a lack of genuine cites it's difficult to see anything worth rescuing.  -- Escape Orbit  (Talk) 20:22, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Again, the article is not ready. In few days there will be ready. There's very much relevant and importent things to write. The entire article is NO promotional fluff. A little patience please.--Nado158 (talk) 20:39, 18 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete – fails WP:GNG due to lack of significant coverage by reliable independent sources. – Kosm  1  fent  13:29, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep, article should pass WP:GNG now. – Kosm  1  fent  11:12, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

That's not true. The references are from different homepages of the club and the group. Read it again.--Nado158 (talk) 21:11, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

I improved the article and the article has significant and independent sources. I will more iprove the article in the course of the days.--Nado158 (talk) 22:19, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
 * The only sources apart from Firma's and the club's websites, I see are a Transfermarkt one which does not support the sentence in question, a Youtube video which does not report why the game's atmosphere was notable and why "such a exciting atmosphere was not seen for a long time in Novi Sad" and a fan blog which is not an appropriate source per WP:BLOGS. You need to provide more sources, preferably from reliable Serbian newspapers offering non-trivial coverage on Firma if you want the article to stand a chance in surviving. – Kosm  1  fent  04:48, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Why do you want absolutely that this page be deleted? There are so many sites with no reference or and much smaller fan groups. This Article has much references: From the official website of the club and from the official hompega of the group(should i take some private website from different fans?) and the transfermarket report, so you see that it was a final with 16.000 spectators. Do I need to finde a reference for each word? This does not have one article here on wikipedia. The Youtube video is from the TV RTS (the main tv in Serbia)a proof for the atmosphere and the choreography. Also the reporter sad that is a highly anticipated a exciting game was not seen for a long time in Novi Sad and other things. Of course, this was European cup final and it was the first major international game since the war. What's there not to understand? In addition, it is not a fan blog, it is an independent newspaper of the fans, that's a difference. Should I get some information from rivals supporter with wrong informations? This newspaper page has only the authority to be a fan site, they are protected from the club. The whole newspaper(almost all international and national) of whom you speak get the information from the officila websites from the club and the group, from where else? Certainly not from copied and fake homepages. Also i added references of the fkvojvodina.come hompage, an another legitimate, acceptable and relevant homepage of the club. That's a lot more referencec than many other sites have it. I will more iprove the article in the course of the days.--Nado158 (talk) 09:15, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

This club and its fans have an almost 100 year old history. They were among the best and most famous in the former Yugoslavia, and there are this also in Serbia today. They are also is very well known in the fan scene in South East Europe, alsoo in Weste and eastern Europe. Not only in football, also in basketball, handball, volleyball and water polo. There is no reason to delete this page.--Nado158 (talk) 09:15, 20 April 2012 (UTC)


 * WP:GNG requires significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. The majority of the sources you used are from Firma's and Vojvodina's websites, so they are not considered independent; no matter how hard you try to convince us to the contrary, seaweed cannot pass for silk ribbons (as they say in my country). The rest sources do nothing towards establishing reliability for this fan club, being unreliable and/or vague. – Kosm  1  fent  11:08, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

According to their theory 80% of all pages of wikipedia must be deleted delate.Why you want to convince us that the article must be? What bothers you here?I dont understand. Again, the source are reliable sources. Of course, most sources are of the club and of the group. Where the other? So it is the same with all other clubs and groups. I also gave other sources. In your opinion the rest sources do nothing towards establishing reliability for this fan club, being unreliable and/or vague but its not true. I understand Englisch, German, Serbian and other languages. You dont understan Serbian. How can you say that it's not true? There is evidence enough, i gave more references than many other clubs and groups here.--Nado158 (talk) 12:59, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I have added further links. In German, English ect.--Nado158 (talk) 13:00, 20 April 2012 (UTC)


 * It's not a "theory", it is a Wikipedia policy. If 80% of the pages fail Wikipedia's policies, then nominate them for deletion. Such arguments by the way won't help in keeping the article; I've already told you what kind of sources you need to in order for the article to pass WP:GNG. Cheers. – Kosm  1  fent  13:24, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I meant no harm. I am just wondering, because this page is well done and i have gave many sources. But i have given the best and safest sources. I have added further links about the pitch invasion ect. I will find more sources and improve the article.--Nado158 (talk) 13:35, 20 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment - wait a sec. Recently we had passed the Crveni Ðavoli, which is a similar article, as it is about the main supporting group of another Serbian club.  Now, the thing is that this one, Firma, is even bigger, and it is considered to be the third largest in the country, so it ends up having no logic by keeping the Crveni Ðavoli and delting this one.  We already have the two largest supporting firms from Serbia: Grobari (Partizan) and Delije (Red Star), now Firma is the third (Vojvodina), while Crveni Ðavoli is possibly the fourth (Radnicki 1923)... Personally, I can say that the ultra movement in Serbia has been quite strong and it has been quite known outside Serbia.  By saying this I also mean that many editors have been adding much stuff related to this firms into the club articles, and personally, I would prefer to have the bigger ones having a separate article, instead of occupiying large sections of club articles, and beside Grobari and Delije, these two are actually the following bigger ones. FkpCascais (talk) 01:56, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
 * "...the ultra movement in Serbia has been quite strong and it has been quite known outside Serbia" If so, there would certainly be reliable sources to warrant notability to Firma. The Crveni Djavoli article was saved by the four articles from Blic, which made it pass GNG. This article does not feature any source of that quality so far, but I trust Nado158 can find some. – Kosm  1  fent  07:25, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, only having in mind the Serbian Cup final incidents from 2011, all major media couvered the events and made reference to them, but searching news reports from media is not at all easy because of several reasons. The first one is that Serbian language uses declinations, meaning, when refered to them, the media will say, exemple Firmaši, and not Firma, and it may depend on the context about what declination is used.  The another difficulty is that Google and similar search engines don´t include the results which are in Cyrillic, which are the majority of Serbian media, so all this makes the searches not as near as easy as the normal English language ones.  Give me a few days to see if I have time to digg in the news reports and bring the relevant articles. FkpCascais (talk) 15:28, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
 * If you search in Cyrillic you will get results in Cyrillic: . The Google News search results in many false positives, as you would expect from a search for a common word and a province, but the first result looks like a good source from Radio Television of Serbia. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:58, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for your kind input. I completelly forgot Google search can be donne in Cyrillic as well, and the RTS source you brought is indeed very good as it refers directly to the group, which is excellent! FkpCascais (talk) 02:03, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Comment - I added another 3 sources: an English link, information from Blic and a report from Novosti. Both are well-known newspapers in Serbia. I will find more sources and improve more the article.Thanks:)--Nado158 (talk) 10:12, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Only the Novosti source was good enough to warrant notability (with the Blic source being about the volleyball team without a mention to Firma – sorry if I made a mistake, blame Google Translate), but it will do. Good job. – Kosm  1  fent  11:12, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
 * With Blic you're partially right. I wanted to confirm that several thousand fans of Vojvodina went also to the volleyball games(especially in the 90s). The English source is from (in the fans scene well-know) Ultras Spirit. I am sure, i will find in the next days more notability sources like Novosti. Thank you very much:)--Nado158 (talk) 13:12, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Comment - I added informations from Sportski žurnal. A well-known sport newspapers in Serbia. :) --Nado158 (talk) 18:03, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep article has been significantly improved & now has been shown to meet WP:GNG. &#9733;&#9734; DUCK IS JAMMMY &#9734;&#9733; 16:53, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment In future Nado when an article which you care about & you feel is notable, go & improve the article & then leave a comment asking users to re-evaluate their votes following improvements to the article. Rather then badgering users with comments the article isn't ready yet & comments about other articles which aren't relevant to this discussion & certainly don't attempt to vote multiple times again. Anyway good job on improving the article & may I suggest that you create an article in your user space then add it to the mainspace when the article is ready TO avoid situations like this. &#9733;&#9734; DUCK IS JAMMMY &#9734;&#9733; 16:53, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Ok,thank you and thanks for the suggestion :)--Nado158 (talk) 17:15, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.