Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/First Coast Commuter Rail


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to Jacksonville Transportation Authority.  Sandstein  19:54, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

First Coast Commuter Rail

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

This was a suggested commuter rail project that never happened, is unlikely to happen anytime soon, and which has never been widely covered by third-party sources outside the agencies suggesting it. Cúchullain t/ c 19:26, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Articles for deletion/Log/2018 September 11.  —cyberbot I   Talk to my owner :Online 19:51, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Transportation-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 20:19, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Florida-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 20:19, 11 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Merge Delete  Fails GNG Thanks,L3X1 ◊distænt write◊  20:56, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
 * CHanegd to merge per arguments below. Thanks,L3X1 ◊distænt write◊  16:01, 23 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep I'm seeing a lot of references by doing a Google search for "First Coast Commuter Rail" where some even reference SunRail. (I wonder if it's a precursor to Brightline as well) FDOT Study Just because it didn't become a reality that it should be deleted as seen with Florida High Speed Corridor and Heartland Expressway. Wouldn't the news articles listed be third-party sources? –  TheGridExe  ( talk )  13:33, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
 * The project did attract some attention from the local press, but nothing substantive, as nothing substantive ever happened with the project. They largely just directly reported what the Jacksonville Transportation Authority said about studies and reports they did. For instance this just reported on JTA's comment that on a feasibility study, and this dead link said the project would be costly and was unlikely to ever come together. This just said that one of the towns would support the project if it came together, which it didn't. Not only did it not get off the drawing board, it never got onto the drawing board after some initial studies. It can't even be said that JTA cancelled the project at some point, as it wasn't even to that stage, they just stopped talking about it.
 * It's also not connected to SunRail (a similar, real project in Central Florida) or Brightline (which isn't a commuter rail project, and doesn't operate in Jacksonville).--Cúchullain t/ c 13:52, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

The Rail Feasibility Analysis Summary Report study I linked above from FDOT provides a detailed summary with the project: "First Coast Commuter Rail In 2009, the Jacksonville Transportation Authority (JTA) along with First Coast MPO and Northeast Florida Regional Council conducted a study on the feasibility of commuter rail throughout the JTA service area. The study found three feasible preferred alternatives, which included routes from downtown Jacksonville to St. Augustine, downtown to Green Cove Springs, and downtown to Yulee. Preliminary planning efforts were completed in 2014 and included travel demand modeling. The downtown-to-St. Augustine corridor (Southeast Corridor) would run parallel to Florida East Coast Railway’s tracks along Philips Highway. It would extend 38 miles and would feature 13 stations. The downtown-to-Green Cove Springs corridor (Southwest Corridor) would run along tracks owned by CSX and Norfolk Southern and would span 29 miles with 12 stations. The North Corridor from downtown to Yulee would be the shortest at 23 miles long but would have 15 stations. As of December 2017, funding is not programmed for further project development and evaluation of the corridors."

I'm unsure if this got molded into something else as there's a bus service with the same name. However, to say it didn't get anything beyond "local coverage" is kind of a misnomer when we're talking about Jacksonville (largest city in size minus Alaska) and St. Augustine. – TheGridExe  ( talk )  15:51, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Local to the Jacksonville metropolitan area, which includes St. Augustine. What you're quoting is just an announcement that the study was done. It never proceeded beyond that point, it hasn't merged into anything else, and there are no sources that say anything beyond the fact that JTA once commissioned feasibility studies for commuter rail. As the summary says, JTA has not committed any further money to get any such project on the drawing board, let alone off the drawing board.--Cúchullain t/ c 17:36, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
 * What I quoted was from a Rail Feasibility Analysis Summary Report that FDOT did for Interstate 75 (not 95) Relief. A feasibility study is definitely more than a planning board adding something to a LRTP. It's still a study by FDOT that verifies the project regardless of its progress. – TheGridExe  ( talk )  15:49, 21 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep or Merge with Jacksonville Transportation Authority -- sufficient secondary sources for notability. I agree with  that a current failure to ever have funding does not undermine its notability as a project.  The Cincinnati subway project failed to get enough funding to be finished despite numerous attempts, and it is very historically significant. --David Tornheim (talk) 07:43, 19 September 2018 (UTC) [revised 08:53, 20 September 2018 (UTC)]
 * This isn't remotely as significant as the Cincinnati subway, which at least got to the stage that some infrastructure was built, and has a lot of sources about it. This is an idea that was floated and then abandoned by a transit agency before getting anything but cursory attention in local press at the time.--Cúchullain t/ c 13:52, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
 * What evidence do you have that it was "abandoned"? I don't remember seeing it in the WP:RS. --David Tornheim (talk) 08:50, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
 * When I wrote this, JTA called me and told me they'd dropped the commuter rail plans years ago and don't have any current ones (I added a comment to that effect after their call). It's not surprising that that hasn't been covered in many reliable sources, because it just sort of quietly fizzled out before any real planning and work was done. There are occasionally still comments about commuter rail being desirable at some unspecified future point, and there are more likely possibilities for things like Brightline, but nothing more than that as far as "First Coast Commuter Rail" goes. Frankly, given that this never moved past the initial studies, the article shouldn't have been created in the first place.--Cúchullain t/ c 15:26, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
 * See, this info could have been presented from the start before having to dig for information. Saying the article shouldn't have been made at the time (2008-2009) just really is the nature of urban planning. The article could have expanded as such but a merge can benefit just as well. For instance, there's a lot of railroads that are forever stubs (which is fine with Wikipedia) due to the Florida population boom of the 1920s. – TheGridExe  ( talk )  15:54, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the explanation. Even though we can't use that in the article, I trust your accurate reporting of that phone call.  I'm still in agreement with TheGridExe that something that is planned and not executed does not make it un-notable.  Plans can be notable.  I certainly agree about stub railroads, which can be like feeder canals (Glens Falls Feeder Canal) (or abandoned segments of canals) that had "bigger and better" plans. --David Tornheim (talk) 00:34, 21 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Comment: I may suggest merging into the Jacksonville Transportation Authority article. While there are local press sources, they don't say anything beyond "JTA is exploring commuter rail".--Cúchullain t/ c 13:52, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Okay. --David Tornheim (talk) 08:50, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, -- RoySmith (talk) 14:02, 19 September 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.