Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Flag of Hazaristan


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. It seems like the primary area of dispute has to do with the statement that this is an "official flag". I see a consensus of Keeping this article and I have removed any trace of mention that this is an official flag from the article. This is a flag used by organized groups for their own use and embodying the symbolism they have embued the flag with. But it doesn't recognized an official recognized country or territory. Liz Read! Talk! 05:08, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Flag of Hazaristan

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Hazarajat doesn't have an official flag. This is a proposed flag however this has not been officially accepted as the flag of Hazarajat. Recommend adding a section in the article about this proposed flag. Hazara Birar (Talk)  04:58, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Afghanistan-related deletion discussions.  Hazara Birar  (Talk)  04:58, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Relisting. So far, the participants have made their opinions known. Please allow room for other editors to participate in the discussion. Thanks. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 05:29, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * The verb proposed is added to the article now. Several references were also added confirming that the flag is widely accepted and is being used by the Hazaras and their well-known respective organizations during protests and ceremonies across the globe. This shows the generation of a public consensus regarding the current flag.
 * Since Hazaristan is not independent and has not any state, or parliament, and cannot have a referendum, talking about official acceptance from that perspective is not relevant here. Basirahang2 (talk) 23:53, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Also, the request for speedy deletion does not point to any criteria for speedy deletion. Basirahang2 (talk) 00:19, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
 * More references from various sources are added now verifying that many Hazaras and their popular community organizations use the flag of Hazaristan. It is also important to mention that many other Hazara organizations and communities also use the flag of Hazaristan. Many of them, do not have an official website but accounts on social media. Worldresident (talk) 17:01, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
 * * Delete If Hazarajat has no way of formalising it and the flag has no history, calling it Flag of Hazaraistan without it being officially adapted implies that it is the official flag which is incorrect. The article does not cite any reliable, published source saying this is the flag of Hazarajat. It also violates the No original research policy. Thus, I recommend deleting this article and adding a Proposed Flag section in Hazarajat article for now, once officially adapted a new article could be created. I could also suggested renaming this article Proposed flag of Hazarajat article, however, not sure it would qualify for an article under that title. : Hazara Birar (Talk)  00:16, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Your deletion nomination counts as your "Delete" vote. You can't vote twice. Liz Read! Talk! 03:09, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Disagree! Why?
 * First, this opinion-based delegation request does not point to any criteria for speedy deletion, which is necessary to consider the request.
 * Second, as said here and mentioned in the article, many Hazaras and well-known Hazara organizations like the Hazara National Congress, the Munich Hazara Association, Brisbane's Hazara Community, and the Hazara Council of Great Britain are already using this flag in their protests, events, and gatherings. It generated a public consensus and agreement regarding the flag of Hazaristan. Many references from different sources are added to the article to confirm the flag's usage among the Hazaras and their organizations. Many more can be added if necessary, but a Wikipedia article is not a reference collection. It does not need to have a long list of references. Just verifying a fact from different sources should be good enough.
 * Third, not having a state, parliament, or referendum does not mean that the people of Hazaristan should not have a flag, and here not having a separate article for their flag.
 * Let us consider this opinion-based delegation request to delete the article Flag of Hazaristan. Then many other articles, including those under Category: Flags of indigenous peoples, should be deleted, as from that perspective, many indigenous peoples and nations have no state or parliament to formalize their symbols, including their flags.
 * A short section about the flag under the Hazaristan/Hazarajat article and a link to the article flag of Hazaristan is definitely necessary.
 * Forth, a flag is a symbol, and it is about a process of acceptance among people by using it in their gatherings and events, like what the Hazaras are doing, rather than making and formalizing it overnight. I suggest reading more about the flags and symbols, including the history of flags belonging to state nations, indigenous peoples, and stateless nations that are members of the Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organization or not. Worldresident (talk) 07:47, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
 * It is not speedy deletion, it is up for discussion whether to delete or not. The discussion is not who is using it, it is the name Flag of Hazaristan which implies it is the flag of Hazarajat which is incorrect. Hazara Birar  (Talk)  01:34, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
 * When the Hazaras and their well-known organizations are using this flag as the flag of their homeland Hazaristan, then why should we not respect them and not write as it is? Here, Wikipedia is not a place to push personal opinions but to write an encyclopedia. This article should stay, and for sure, there is always room for improvement. Worldresident (talk) 07:42, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Flag usage is very important as it tells us about the public consensus. Inside the article, there are many links to different sources, here, I put some from social media.
 * 12 345678910 Worldresident (talk) 08:15, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I am doing my bit for Wikipedia, please avoid personal attacks. This clearly violates a few policies, mainly the No original research. Maybe add couple of reliable, published sources that says it is the flag of Hazarajat. Hazara Birar  (Talk)  23:39, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
 * of course, no personal attack, and I didn't it before, and will not in the future.
 * I think I don't need to repeat over and over that the Hazaras and their organizations are already using the flag of Hazaristan and there are already many references added to the article confirming this. We are not here to judge people on why they are having and using a flag before having a state, parliament, or referendum.
 * I think, there is no more to add to this deletion discussion page for now.  I hope an administrator can look at it as soon as possible.
 * And again, the article Flag of Hazaristan should have remained and of course, as always, there should be room for improvement and update. Worldresident (talk) 01:05, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep the article Flag of Hazaristan!
 * Also added the following new research as a new reference to the article:
 * Deconstructing Afghan Historiography: A Case Study of Hazara History Writing
 * Two popular and old Hazaragi websites Hazara.net and Hazara International, which are explained as key “social spaces for engagement with Hazara historiography,” are analysis focuses. In this research, the flag of Hazaristan has been mentioned as an element/factor besides others contributing in deconstructing Afghan Historiography.
 * Both websites use the flag (for instance, hazara.net: 1, 2, Hazara International 1, 2), and the researcher mentioned that one of them has a special page for that. Worldresident (talk) 10:44, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
 * The Hazara International and Hazara.net are Hazara owned and operated websites that can be considered biased. The sources should include independent sources with reputation for fact checking, accuracy and should prevent bias.  Hazara Birar  (Talk)  00:47, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
 * The article Flag of Hazaristan is already contains links to various types of resources including peer reviewed research article/s, news coverage of mainstream media in different countries and languages as well as links to the official websites of several Hazara organizations, confirming and verifying the fact that the Hazaras have a flag called the flag of Hazaristan. Based on the Reliable_sources, I avoided adding any User-generated content even though many Hazara and non-Hazara organizations do not still have websites and they post news, videos, and photo stories on social media like Facebook or Twitter. When it comes to reliability and being biased or unbiased, I refer to the section, Biased or opinionated sources of Reliable_sources.
 * Beyond that, I think, if there are significant disagreements, critiques, or reactions, it might be helpful to add a new section, called for instance Reactions. Following the recent news and reactions to the extensive usage of the Hazaristan flag, some non-Hazara groups and figures like Gulbuddin Hikmatyar or Sayed Isa Hussaini Mazari strongly reacted. Those reactions if become more, that new section might be helpful. Worldresident (talk) 09:30, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Looking closer at two sources, hazara.net and Hazara International, both seem to be the source of several research papers, here, here, here, and here. And both are sources of the Human Rights Watch's report "We are the Walking Dead." Those are besides the brand new peer-reviewed research Deconstructing Afghan Historiography: A Case Study of Hazara History Writing which has a special focus on both sources.
 * That means not easy say that they are not reliable sources. Worldresident (talk) 22:46, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is known for being controlled by States and apparently the Taliban or the Afghan establishment have forced you to delete this flag. You can delete anything you don't like but then don't claim to be a legitimate source of information. Every Hazara is in favor of this flag. So don't cancel people's flag! No flag in the world has 100% support among the people. So probably a genocidal maniac is trying to fool Wikipedia to remove this flag and make people in the world believe Hazaras don't exist just like they have tried for more than one century. 62.240.134.36 (talk) 11:42, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
 *  Keep  the article Flag of Hazaristan.
 * The article is supported by many references and various types of resources.  I don’t see any reason to delete this article.
 * It was first argued that Hazaristan has no such official flag. More references added to the article verifying that the Hazara and their respective organizations are extensively use that flag, and if by officiality means a state, parliament or referendum should be there to verify it, then many flag articles particularly those belong to stateless nations and native people also should be deleted. And of course, such a thing might not be logical and fair.
 * Then argued that there are no reliable sources. While there were already many, more references from mainstream media covering the news related to Hazara gatherings using their flag. Here is another one from yesterday.
 * Here I also added several links to public posts on social media showing how the Hazaras have and use their flag. I know, social media are normally not considered as reliable sources, but it is wise to look to have a better picture. Here is for instance one new post from a new gathering of Hazaras using their flag.
 * As mentioned, it’s always room for improvement and update. Worldresident (talk) 14:50, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
 * You can only "vote" once so I'm striking your second vote. Liz Read! Talk! 03:12, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Please refer to No original research. Your new source from Afghanistan International is very clear example of original research. There's absolutely no mention of the flag however it does have an image of the demonstrators who are holding a flag. Now you are implying a conclusion that just because it was used in a demo it is the flag of Hazarajat, for this specific reason the No original research policy exists. None of the independent, reliable published sources talk about the flag. Hazara Birar  (Talk)  01:28, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * No, I can assure there are no Taliban on the Wikipedia board, nor are there any as editors. Oaktree b (talk) 18:07, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Leaning keep and improve. A symbol does not need to be an official national flag to be included in Wikipedia. I would suggest noting up front in the lede that this is an unofficial flag, however. BD2412  T 14:23, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep - though are we even !voting on deletion? The nomination seems to suggest improvement, not deletion. In any case it is not necessary for there to be an agreed/official flag in order for the topic of the flag to be worthwhile and notable if supported by sources, as this appears to be. Thparkth (talk) 15:26, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep as appears notable. Rubbish computer (Ping me or leave a message on my talk page) 20:26, 20 November 2022 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.