Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fleet Admiral of the Russian Federation

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Keep --malathion talk 21:38, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Fleet Admiral of the Russian Federation
There's no such rank in the Russian military, as explained on the talk page.--DmitryKo 10:26, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete -- Longhair | Talk 12:36, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep: If theres no such rank, why there is there an established insignia for the position? The pic on the page is from U.S. Army files on comparative ranks.  I beleive Russia does have a five star naval rank which can be bestowed upon someone in times of war much like the United States maintains the rank of Fleet Admiral although noone currently holds it.  This should have been discussed, in my opinion, before one was so quick to add a VFD tag. -Husnock 16:02, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Established by whom, the U.S. Army Institute of Heraldry? All the non-fictional ranks are listed in the Russian Federal Law "On military service and military ranks". This particular one never existed. -DmitryKo 22:24, 31 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Followup Comment: I just did a major rewrite of the article that will hopefully clear up the confusion. I am not disputing any of the Russian sources.  From what I gather, this is a hypothetical rank that could be bestowed if Russia ever had to appoint a 5 star naval position to be the equivalent to officers in other countries.  Its not disputed there is currently no rank as this in the Russian military.  Only that there could be.  As there appears to be an established insignia, obtained from who knows where (it was on the Army's PDF file thats all I know), I dont think it can be called original research.  Also, for the record, the knowledge of DmitryKo on this subject is very impressive. -Husnock 14:02, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
 * In all honesty, I see little sense in describing ranks that "could exist", as well as its hypothetical insignia that just mimics Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union layout. It's never even been proposed or appointed to anyone, unlike Admiral of the Navy (US).
 * "Its never even been proposed or appointed by anyone" is the statement I challenge. How can you say that for 100 percent certianty?  Why would this rank be in a U.S. Army publication?  What are the procedures in Russia's military for appointment to a five star naval rank, when and if this became neccesary.  I would agree that factual accuracy can be disputed here, but there is too much for this to simple be deleted. -Husnock 00:50, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
 * 1. Its never even been proposed or appointed by anyone"... how can you say that ? — I tried to search the Internet, along with governmental sites and major Russian newspapers, for "Адмирал Флота Российской Федерации" to see if there was a promotion to this rank or maybe a public discussion for it, and found nothing. Not even a single bit.
 * 2. Why would this rank be in a U.S. Army publication?  — I believe they imoly made a wild guess that since current Russian military ranks are largely based on Soviet system, a rank similar to Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union should exist. They were wrong.
 * You seem very very quick to dismiss the U.S. Army source. Simply stating that they were wrong and calling that the end of it isnt good enough for me.  The PDF file I continously refer to is from a major diplomatic publication.  Saying that a major office of the U.S. Army, such as the Institute of Heraldry, made a "wild guess" is rather far fetched.  That is why I am so much against this VFD.  The sources that contradict the personal view of the nominator and simply being dismissed as "wrong".  Compromise is what Wikipedia is all about. -Husnock 00:50, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Unless you can give me a Russian source for this rank, there's nothing to talk about - I'm just not in a mood to discuss factual errors made by various US institutions. Call it my personal point of view. --DmitryKo 09:53, 4 August 2005 (UTC)


 * 3. What are the procedures ... for appointment to a five star naval rank — Since "N-star" grade designations are not used in Russian Armed forces at all (there is Supreme Officer class that contains 4 naval ranks - Counter Admiral, Vice Admiral, Admiral, Admiral of the Fleet), the procedures for "5-star" naval rank are just the same as for "6-star" and "7-star" ranks... that is, no rank, no procedure. --DmitryKo 21:51, 3 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Keep: the rank does exist, but it is called "Fleet Admiral of the Russian Federation." Zscout370 (Sound Off) 16:55, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Please provide a source to confirm your statement, something official from the Ministry of Defense/the State Duma/the President of the Russian Federation. --DmitryKo 22:24, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I cannot find it either. Plus, in the USSR, there were more Marshals than Fleet Admirals anyways. Delete. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 22:53, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
 * At Russian_military_ranks, it said this rank does not exist, though the highest rank is called Admiral of the Fleet (адмира́л фло́та). Zscout370 (Sound Off) 03:29, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
 * True. There were two distinct ranks in the Soviet Navy, Admiral of the Fleet and Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union (refer to Uniform Insignia - USRR, Navy). Likewise, there was Marshal of the Soviet Union in the Soviet Army but also Marshal of a branch and Chief Marshal of a branch, both ranked equivalent to General of the Army (Uniform Insignia is being a litle incorrect here - see Comparative military ranks of World War II) . --DmitryKo 11:16, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I am now voting officially confused. I just found these shoulder boards online: http://www.tridentmilitary.com/New-photos16/radsb23.jpg. If the rank does not exist, then why are shoulder boards being made in Russia? Zscout370 (Sound Off) 03:33, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
 * See the talk page. --DmitryKo 11:16, 1 August 2005 (UTC)


 * It seems remarkable that the U.S. military would claim such a Russian rank to exist when it doesn't, complete with insignia and everything. It almost makes it interesting enough to keep the article, but I would suggest merge and redirect to Russian military ranks, keeping the talkpage of the current article/future redirect for future reference in case the topic comes up again. Uppland 03:21, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think the discussion should be merged to the Talk page of Russian military ranks, just to avoid future confusion. --DmitryKo 11:16, 1 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Comment. I am going on a two week exercise on Friday so will simply say that I think this article warrants existence. There has been one champion for its deletion, citing Russian sources and Russian documents.  If we want to put a "factual accuracy" tag on the article, thats fine, but there are sources both in hardcopy and on the internet for this ranks existence.  I actually feel this was VFDed way too quickly, without any discussion, and I sense a strong feeling here of article ownership, from the VFD nominator, when it comes to Russian miltiary rank articles.  Let's compromise, calm this down, and do some more research instead of calling for a VFD.  See everyone in 2 weeks -Husnock 00:50, 3 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Keep - The US Army source makes this notable enough to warrant an entry, even if they're wrong. The controversy can be explained in the article. Nandesuka 12:02, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
 * The problem here is that the nominator of the VFD refuses to accept any information from a U.S. source, which may or may not be wrong. I still feel this rank originated through some regulation in the Russian military which calls for the appointment of a five star naval rank, to match appointments in similar militaries, when and if a war or emergency calles for it.  As a compromise, I've been changing all entries to clearly reflect that the existence of this rank is mentioned only in United States sources and tends to contradict Russian regulations.  However, the VFD nominator was not happy with that either, blatantly putting in an edit summary to "F- U.S. sources" 1.  I probably wouldnt be happy if someone made an article on Supreme Grand General of the United States, since I would feel such a rank doesn't exist, but if they provided sources from other countries I would at least entertain that other nations believe there is such a rank.  In any event, I leave tomorrow for my military duty.  Who knows what I will find when I return! -Husnock 14:44, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I can say it again - ignore U.S. sources if they're telling unconfirmed nonsense. As for the entertainment value of this error, even if the decision will be to keep the article, exclusively for this single reason, I see no point in mentioning it in every article that discusses Russian naval ranks system. It best belongs to Category:Urban legends as a nice example of Conventional wisdom. --DmitryKo 22:26, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
 * My keep vote stands, regardless of what the nominator will or won't "accept." It's not really his decision.  Nandesuka 22:48, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.