Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Forced Entry (band)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. (non-admin closure) Spirit of Eagle (talk) 06:50, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Forced Entry (band)

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Defunct non-notable band that "never achieved mainstream success". Fails WP:BAND and WP:GNG.  B E C K Y S A Y L E S  16:28, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions.  Everymorning   talk  16:46, 1 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep Forced Entry was responsible for leading or pioneering the Seattle or Washington state thrash metal scene, and they are notable for the inclusion of Brad Hull, who is now in Sanctuary. Thrashaholic88 (talk) 17:34, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Note to closing admin. User:Thrashaholic88 is the creator of Forced Entry (band)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Washington-related deletion discussions.  Rcsprinter123     (chew)  @ 20:08, 1 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep This is a notable band by a notable musician with references. MetalDiablo666 (talk) 21:07, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
 * There are presently only four references. The first  is from a questionable source with no reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. The second  is from an unreliable source that is not independent of the subject. The last two   are primary sources, that simply list the name of the band.  B E C K Y S A Y L E S  21:48, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, NorthAmerica1000 02:08, 9 January 2015 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, N ORTH A MERICA 1000 01:49, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete, no reliable sourcing found, users above are saying that it's "notable" but not showing any proof. Saying that something is notable doesn't make it so. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 05:24, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep per WP:HEY efforts from all involved. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 17:27, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep. The band released albums in 1989 and 1991 on independent record label Combat Records. Combat's artists included Megadeth, Circle Jerks (contributors to the Repo Man soundtrack), Impaler_ (unwitting nemesis of Tipper Gore and the PMRC), and Venom (originators of 'black metal'). That's sufficient to establish notability per element 5 of WP:BAND, cited above by proposer.


 * Besides the interview cited in the article there are album reviews at AllMusic  and Blabbermouth, and a biography at Encyclopaedia Metallum . The band is included as an important 'also ran' at Gibson  and in print   . Not enough perhaps to independently establish WP:N per element 1 of WP:BAND, but enough to persuade me that Thrashaholic88 was right about the band's importance.


 * Proposer should have offered some editorial assistance here instead of trying to kill the article within 10 minutes of its creation . Yappy2bhere (talk) 03:15, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: preceding editor has added external links to track listings.
 * A misstatement of fact, Becky; none of the seven links are track listings . Album reviews (2), biographies (2), Gibson Guitar's estimation of the band's importance, band's publication history at Discogs, and the band's Myspace page. Please sign your comments when you editorialize. Unsigned small text can be mistaken for an unbiased administrative caution. Yappy2bhere (talk) 17:15, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
 * WP:BAND#5 requires "two or more albums on a major record label or on one of the more important indie labelsn (i.e., an independent label with a history of more than a few years, and with a roster of performers, many of whom are independently notable)". There is no reliable source indicating the band was signed by Combat records. See WP:BURDEN. Combat records is not a major record label. Combat is not one of the more important indie labels. Its article says it was taken over and dissolved by Sony, and none of the bands attributed to it are referenced.  Reading this guideline broadly enough to include Combat leads to an argument for double INHERITED Notability, from the notable other bands up to the record label and back down to the one being discussed.  Even assuming a pass on WP:BAND, the guideline only indicates that it "may be notable". It still needs to pass WP:GNG.  As discussed above, all of the references (including external links recently added) are either trivial mentions  , track listings, primary sources, or from sources with no reputation for fact-checking and accuracy   (allows user submitted content) (allows user submitted content)  B E C K Y S A Y L E S  09:29, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
 * (tl;dr? (1) WP:N per WP:BAND, elements 5 and 6; (2) sufficient sources exist for the topic; (3) it depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is.)
 * There are two considerations here. First, the subject of the article must be worthy of the editorial resources needed to improve it. That's WP:N in a nutshell. A successful label is presumed able to identify worthy artists. It doesn't idly prognosticate but backs its opinion with its money and reputation, so an artist with continued backing (per the "two's a trend" metric) is presumed worthy of editorial attention. That's WP:BAND#5 in a nutshell. There's no weird transitive property of notability at work here, as you seem to believe.
 * This band is in fact notable per WP:BAND#5. Combat operated independently from 1983 until 1991 when it was folded back into parent Relativity. That's nine years, ten before the "Combat/Relativity" imprint was finally dropped ff. By your logic you have no more than a few toes. The article does in fact list Combat artists, including Forced Entry and my exemplars supra; references have been added. Both the label and this band satisfy the criteria specified in WP:BAND#5, and now I see that the band also satisfies WP:BAND#6.
 * Second, there must be sources sufficient to write a factual article; otherwise the question of notability is moot. The article references are reliable within the context of the statements they support. None are self-published, none are questionable. The xtreemmusic.org bio was apparently written from the album liner notes; most of that information is available in interview [2(18)] supra. Blabbermouth does allow some user content, but the references don't cite user content. Encyclopaedia Metallum isn't cited as a reference; that bio is also apparently abstracted from album liner notes. The "trivial mentions" in [10(15)] [11(16)] [12(17)] supra establish the band's relevance within the contemporary Seattle music scene, perfectly good references in that context. Primary references [3],[4] supra show the band touring nationally with other notable bands, likewise reliable sources for the same reason, and sufficient to demonstrate WP:N per WP:BAND#6 as well. Clearly a factual article can be written from available sources.
 * WP:BAND is not a secondary "screen" but a topical elaboration of WP:GNG - notice please WP:GNG neatly summarized as element 1. You're parsing the guideline much too finely - a subject "may be notable" if it satisfies any element of WP:BAND, and WP:GNG is "not a guarantee" of WP:N. Two ways of expressing the same notion, I think. Yappy2bhere (talk) 21:59, 22 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep - Under a notable record label, decent references, I can't find any reason to support deletion.  George Edward C –  Talk  –  Contributions  08:56, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.