Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fourth International Posadist


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. JohnCD (talk) 18:02, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Fourth International Posadist

 * – ( View AfD View log )

No evidence of notability. Superheroes Fighting (talk) 02:58, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Needs improvement but keep. 57 Varieties of Trotskyism indeed, many of which could hold a Congress in a taxi, but this one is notable. The article can be improved from 3rd party sources. From the first page of a Google search, for example, there is this article. AllyD (talk) 07:15, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment I've now added some 3rd party references to the article. AllyD (talk) 19:15, 31 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep - agree with AllyD. Also this, this, this, this and this cover it, just from a one-minute search on Google Books.  Strange group, poorly sourced article, but certainly notable. Warofdreams talk 08:44, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions.  —Mia-etol (talk) 10:16, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions.  —Mia-etol (talk) 10:16, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Simply and I might say simplistically claiming that an article lacks notability does not prove your assertion. I am not a partisan of the PI (Posadist) but I do note that it was present and active in a considerable number of countries. I also note that politically they have a considerable claim to being a distinct and distinctive international political current. Given the fame, or notoriety if you like, of this tendency due to its rather individual views on the possibility of UFOs the entry topic does have considerable notability.

Mike Pearn —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.172.178.18 (talk) 15:37, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Keep - Since this is one of a series of articles of a mass deletion effort, I'm going to state my case once and will copy-paste it below — it holds for one and all. This is an encyclopedia. Certain things are considered automatically encyclopedia-worthy at Wikipedia: degree-granting universities, secondary schools, numbered roads, towns, species of plants and animals, and so on and so forth. In my earnest belief, political parties and their youth sections passing the standard of WP:Verifiability should automatically meet the standard of encyclopedia-worthiness, without regard to size or ideology. These are the subject of serious scholarship. The Hoover Institution, closely linked to Stanford University, in 1991 published the 25th annual edition of its Yearbook of International Communist Affairs, recording the history and activities of left wing parties like this. The scholar Robert J. Alexander authored an 1100 page volume called International Trotskyism, 1929-1985: A Documented Analysis of the Movement, published by Duke University Press and held by something like 180 libraries worldwide. There have been monographs written on Trotskyism in America (Constance Myers, The Prophet's Army: Trotskyists in America, 1928-1941, Greenwood Press, 1977; Breitman, LeBlanc, and Wald, Trotskyism in the United States: Historical Essays and Reconsiderations, Humanities Press, 1996) and Trotskyism in the UK (John Callaghan, British Trotskyism: Theory and Practice, Basil Blackwell, 1984). Yes, little sects such as this are tiny; no, you're not going to find stories on them in the New York Times. But they are the subject of scholarly inquiry and deserve notability per se on that basis, just like insects and professional football players are instantly notable if their existence is verified. There is no point to this mass deletion effort. It will annihilate information to no good purpose — serious information that BELONGS in a comprehensive encyclopedia. It's time to Ignore All Rules to defend the quality of the encyclopedia and further, to amend the inadequate current notability guidelines for such organizations. And no, I'm not a Trotskyist and I don't play one on TV, if there were a similar series of attacks on right wing fringe parties I'd say the same thing. Carrite (talk) 17:08, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
 * An article should be kept if what it is about is notable, deleted otherwise. It would be silly to keep an article about a group that genuinely isn't notable simply because articles about other groups that might possibly be notable were nominated for deletion at the same time. Further comment on Carrite's remark is hardly required. Superheroes Fighting (talk) 19:55, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
 * But what might be worthwhile is if you expand on your 4 word AfD nomination - specifically about this article? AllyD (talk) 20:11, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
 * * Comment - A four word nomination which was copied and pasted 20 times without specific discussion of a single article. Hours to build, five minutes to destroy... Carrite (talk) 23:24, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
 * You are implying that I used exactly the same wording for each AfD about Trotskyist internationals. That is wrong, and anyone who looks will see that I did not do that; in several cases, the wording was different, and in some I commented on the evidence that was available (or not available) for the specific group. Superheroes Fighting (talk) 23:22, 2 April 2011 (UTC)


 * * Comment - Per Superheroes Fighting's simplistic take that "an article should be kept if what it is about is notable, deleted otherwise," I offer the following... We are discussing application of the General Notability Guideline as it relates to organizational histories. Here is what Wikipedia says about Policies and guidelines: "Wikipedia policies and guidelines are developed by the community to describe best practice, clarify principles, resolve conflicts, and otherwise further our goal of creating a free, reliable encyclopedia... Although Wikipedia does not employ hard-and-fast rules, Wikipedia policy and guideline pages describe its principles and best-known practices. Policies explain and describe standards that all users should normally follow, while guidelines are meant to outline best practices for following those standards in specific contexts. Policies and guidelines should always be applied using reason and common sense." This effort to annihilate 20 articles that SHOULD be in an encyclopedia by the rigid and draconian application of ill-fitting GUIDELINES violates common sense. "Ignore All Rules" means nothing more or less than "Use Common Sense to build and improve the encyclopedia." Since this was a copy-and-paste mass challenge, this message will be likewise copied-and-pasted where applicable. Carrite (talk) 23:24, 31 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep due to sufficient reliable sources, (all of Warofdreams'), but be very careful to remove all the hoaxy content (and AllyD's Fortean Times cite) without removing anything useful. Only Matt Salusbury at the Fortean Times, and User:Formeruser-81, believe that J. Posadas believed in UFOs. Note, for example, that the New Age movement was only a decade old when Posadas died. Every other source only mentions the sort of things that one (impartial users) might expect of Trotskyists. Special:Contributions/Formeruser-81 also uploaded the admittedly very cherry-picked [[Image:Gayhitler.jpg]], and quit working at Wikipedia in 2005. S/he has never answered any message on his/er talk page. Anarchangel (talk) 07:06, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * It needs sourcing, but the tendency is genuinely well-known for its speculations about UFOs. Among things on Google Books, Permanent revolution on the altiplano: Bolivian Trotskyism, 1928-2005 covers this in some detail. Warofdreams talk 08:52, 1 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep - These articles are part of a series of articles about the various trends within Trotskyism - a political tradition of some relevance with significant presence in a large number of countries,e.g. 5 people with roots in various threads of the tradition (at least one of them fairly obscure) were recently elected to the Irish parliament (the Dáil) - blanket elimination of the more obscure smaller organisations (or sometimes only apparently obscure because they aren't represented in English-speaking countries) will seriously distort Wikipedia's coverage of this political tradition. We should be careful not to take decisions based on our political opinions or prejudices or to allow ourselves to be seen to be yoked into a political campaign (even if this may not be deliberate on the part of the proposer). While there may be a case for consolidation of some of the articles into longer more inclusive ones and some of the articles may require more referencing - if necessary in other languages - I think it would be a serious error to delete any of these articles. I'm adding this opinion to all the organizations proposed for deletion. Mia-etol (talk) 18:36, 1 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep  I concur with Carrite--historical information of this sort is encyclopedic. Our scope is broad enough to record minor parties. The'yre relatively difficult to judge for notability, without using what are in some cases very difficult to find sources. The reader is best served if they are covered comprehensively, not selectively. just a small religious movements, and I think our general policy has been to be inclusive of those that have a real existence. The guiding policies are WP:V and NOT PAPER   DGG ( talk ) 21:09, 1 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep The group has had organizations in various countries all publishing unique periodicals, the group has been referenced in a number of mainstream publications.


 * Delete - Article does not meet general notability criteria.--יום יפה (talk) 14:54, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.