Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Francis Myers (CasaGrande)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Seraphimblade Talk to me 00:56, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Francis Myers (CasaGrande)

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Lack of notability, article based on primary sources (and even then lots seem unverifiable). Redirect to New Almaden is a possibility, even though the article title is a very unlikely search term (including the typo in the disambiguation). Fram (talk) 12:14, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People, Architecture, California,  and Louisiana. Fram (talk) 12:14, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I think the article is worth keeping. It's more that about a house so he should have his own page. He is a biographical representation of someone who came to California either right before or during the gold rush (newspaper sources vary on the year) with little money and did well.  Many from this time did not marry since there were far fewer women in California.  He is well documented with many sources.  Very few homes built in the 1850's survive in California.  It's part of the story, but not all of it. Thehusband (talk) 00:56, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗  plicit  12:35, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I've added more sources. There is a lot of information about Mr Meyer's online.  Occasionally some of the sources have him listed as Meyers, instead of Myers, but Myers is how his name is spelled on his tombstone, voter registration and personal letters currently stored at Louisiana State University. Thehusband (talk) 18:15, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * TheHusband (or anyone else), can you point to the links which are actually reliable and independent, and provide significant coverage? I see unreliable sources like familusearch and findagrave, and things like this which don't really help either: but I don't see the sources which actually help to establish notability for Myers. Fram (talk) 12:39, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I think A Contested Election in California is the best source
 * He's on pages 54-56. He is the Election Inspector for this case that is being questioned. There are newspaper articles from his death as well as the 8 letters on file at Louisiana State University from the 1840's and 1850's.  One letter is addressed to Francis Myers, City of Sacramento.  No street address.  Another one says "Francis Myers, San Jose, CA" on the envelope. Still no address. The towns were much smaller back then.  I do not think there are many early letters from this era in California.  All of these things make him interesting.  I had included a lot of sources like the census and voter registration so I was clear that there was just one Francis Myers at this time. Thehusband (talk) 05:54, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Anyone coming to California before 1850 was considered a California Pioneer [Category:California_pioneers]. This is not very common. This San Jose newspaper article mentions that he's a Pioneer.  The death of this Pioneer was even published in San Francisco in addition to San Jose. The term Pioneer doesn't carry the same weight or meaning as it does today.  In 1894 there was no road between San Franciso and San Jose, so I find it impressive for his obituary to be in both cities.  What's even more remarkable is that California was still part of Mexico in 1846.  Americans were not allowed into California legally at that point. You can read more about the [Society_of_California_Pioneers], which you need to prove that your ancestor came to California before 1850.  There are other societies where their relatives arrived later, but this one is the most respected of all the groups.
 * Here are three additional secondary sources I've found mentioning him in regards to Grande Casa
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 * On each of these three links, you can click on the picture on the left to see the brochure/article/document. Thehusband (talk) 18:35, 14 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Comment Redirect to New_Almaden: There is a chance this person might be notable per WP:GNG, but there is a ton of really bad sources here (primary, unreliable, etc.). Familysearch, Find a Grave, and census records are not reliable, and the frequent use of newspaper citations with only a trivial mention of the name "Francis Myers" risks building a Frankenstein article out of multiple people with the same name, WP:OR, WP:SYNTH, or undue emphasis on trivialities (e.g. providing witness testimony is not what gets somebody into an encyclopedia, and mere verifiability doesn't guarantee inclusion). Is it reliably established that the builder and judge are the same person? One obituary states: "The deceased was a carpenter by trade but he accumulated considerable means and retired and has for some time been rated as a capitalist").  We can't have an article based primarily on snippets, census records and primary sources, nor mere mentions of a name on signs, picture captions, or tombstones: that is the realm of historians and biographers to analyze and publish elsewhere: only then can the info be summarized into a tertiary encyclopedia. --Animalparty! (talk) 03:20, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I did consider whether there could be more than one Francis Myers in San Jose and Almaden, but these were small places at the time, and I have not found more than one Francis Myers in the local census and voter records, or anywhere else showing more than one. For some perspective, in 1870 there were only 9000 people in San Jose, while New Almaden was even smaller. He spent most of his time in California in New Almaden and only moved to San Jose at the very end of his life.  In this book "A Contested Election in California", Francis Myers mentions on page 54 that he built the Casa Grande, on page 55 he mentions that he owns some houses in New Almaden and rents them out, and then on page 56 he says that he was a member of the Elections Board in 1886 as well as the Inspector of the Election in question.  The 1894 obituary mentions Francis Myers owned at least 4 different properties and other promissory notes.   So it looks like the builder and the judge are the same person.   The next person to be interviewed in that book is G.E. Lighthall.  What's interesting is that there is a photo of both Lighthall and Francis Myers at this Santa Clara County Park website.  The page says that they were both "prominent Almadenders".  The disputed election in 1886 in Santa Clara was between two Senators(Felton and Sullivan).  It was widely covered at the time. Thehusband (talk) 05:37, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
 * But looking beyond the primary records, do you see significant coverage in reliable independent sources? His content in A Contested Election in California appears to consists only of his testimony, making it a primary source. Wikipedia articles cannot connect the dots or infer unpublished statements, no matter how likely or credible they may seem. This article on the whole is too close to WP:OR with too much interpretation: holding up scraps and building a narrative around them. I think a redirect to New_Almaden or deletion is in order, at least until a professional sorts through the sources and can characterize his contributions and biography. --Animalparty! (talk) 07:52, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Here are some other secondary sources.
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 * Thehusband (talk) 00:35, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Here's another source document called Three Pioneer Rapides Families, by Stafford. Francis Myer's is listed with a short biography on page 121.  These links lead to the same document.  One of the letters in the Louisiana collection is also mentioned on this page.
 * https://www.familysearch.org/library/books/records/item/765772-three-pioneer-rapides-families-a-genealogy-by-george-mason-graham-stafford?offset=14
 * https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5802c4d9414fb5e45ce4dc44/t/5cd2d8ff1905f458727c9119/1557321989627/Jaudon-Robert+3.pdf Thehusband (talk) 05:35, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I have removed all the familysearch, finda grave and census records references. Thehusband (talk) 06:24, 15 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Three Pioneer Rapides Families is the same source as this PDF. The biographical info on Myers on pg. 121 I don't see as significant coverage. The brief obituaries in the SF Call and San Jose Herald, are fairly trivial as well, and the similarities in wording and structure suggests they might be syndicated obits written by only one source and reprinted elsewhere. The Santa Clara County Parks sources are trivial mentions, primary sources, unreliable, and/or mainly about Casa Grande. We can't have a Wikipedia article based predominantly on names appearing briefly in brochures, letters, archival documents, databases, genealogies, or even newspapers. Nobody gets into an encyclopedia just because they are "mentioned buying nails" or verifiably got married and died. To satisfy WP:GNG and WP:42 we need significant coverage in multiple reliable sources that are independent of the topic. I'm just not seeing that.  --Animalparty! (talk) 00:49, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * The thing that's so interesting about Francis Myers buying nails is the book that it's in. It's not any book, but it's Sue Eakin's book that was the basis for the 9 time Academy Awards the movie had "12 Years a Slave".  Sue Eakins is the person who rediscovered this 100+ year old book and researched it.  I have not seen the movie but "Myers" is part of the book.  What's also interesting is that the collection of Francis Myers letters also mentions other people that are mentioned in the book.
 * The link you included for the entire pdf on the Three Pioneer Rapides Families shows the party that Francis Myers came with to California. It says he went with his brother in law Thaddeus Robert, via the Isthmus of Panama and a few other people. It definitely confirms that they were California Pioneers since they get to California before 1850.  Here's the page that talks about how they got to California.  Thehusband (talk) 03:01, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * KEEP: Since most of the documentation we have talks about his journey to California and life there, I think he should be listed in the category of [Category:California_pioneers] and his page should be changed from [Francis_Myers_(CasaGrande)] to [Francis_Myers(pioneer)]. There are several sources talking about his pioneer status. The letters at Louisiana State University archives and other books do not mention CasaGrande but rather his early arrival (consistent with a Pioneer) in California. It would not make sense to fold him into Casa Grande. Thehusband (talk) 19:27, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Francis Myers was the largest property owner with 16 homes that he owned in New Almaden. .  This source is on page 28, and was from Henning Jennings, and not Mr Myers.  So it can't be considered a primary source. Thehusband (talk) 15:22, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 23:12, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * KEEP: I have made a lot of changes to this article over the past few weeks and addressed the concerns that were mentioned.  I have removed the primary sources and replaced them with secondary sources.  There were a significant number of sources for someone who died 125 years ago.  I find his biography interesting and worthy of note. Thehusband (talk) 18:42, 22 May 2022 (UTC)


 * No need to SHOUT, and please don't vote twice. And as far as I am concerned, no, Myers still isn't notable, the main source are court transcripts which are primary sources. I see no evidence of notability at all. Fram (talk) 08:06, 23 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Comment The Santa Clara County documents that I'm seeing (i.e. [MEYERS, Francis - b.1812 in South; to NA 11/54; built Casa Grande; at NA until 1877; last built Sta. Isabel shafthouse. __ this]) give his name as "Meyers". Searching on that name might yield better results. Also, I don't understand why this article has "(CasaGrande)" in the title - if it is to disambiguate the person, then it would be better to use something like "California Pioneer". I'll read through the links provided by Thehusband. I am leaning toward keep even though many sources are primary. It is hard to apply today's criteria to a historical figure. For example, there were very few news outlets in California at that time so even a few mentions should have heavy value. Lamona (talk) 05:27, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete - I went through the sources and don't see how his accomplishments meet WP:GNG. It is all passing mentions. Nothing in-depth. I understand the difficulty in finding old sources, but anyone today who owned 16 houses and was an architect and also a judge would have a hard time qualifying either unless there was something more significant. TimTempleton (talk) (cont)  19:32, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete - Reading the article in its 1 June 2022 state, I'm not seeing any concrete critera of notability per WP:ANYBIO. The third sentance describes him as "prominent" based on a photo caption. Somebody did a lot of work to find supporting citations but they are passing mentions at best. He was an influential local real estate holder but there is no broad coverage outside his geographical immediate area. The 1873 citation confirms that he was a judge but by my reading he was a county judge, a level that does not normally pass the bar (excuse the pun!) for WP:JUDGE. Blue Riband► 02:39, 2 June 2022 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.