Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Frank Cogliano


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete.  —&#8288;Scotty Wong &#8288;— 06:28, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Frank Cogliano

 * – ( View AfD View log )

An autobiography that does not meet WP:BASIC as sources do not show significant coverage of him and does not meet any of the three criteria listed at WP:ANYBIO. Also does not meet any aspect of WP:COMPOSER as has never written for a notable composition nor written for one that has won in a major competition. His work is not cited as influential anywhere nor does he appear at reasonable length in any standard reference books. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 18:58, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 18:58, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of New York-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 18:58, 14 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Source assessment Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 19:05, 14 July 2021 (UTC)


 * A subscription is needed to access the Film Score Monthly reference and that should not disqualify it as a source according to Wikipedia policy. It includes an extended profile on Frank Cogliano and his work in orchestration.

IMDB is not user generated, the official credits need to be verified. Frank Cogliano is listed on the IMDB page for Black Love as the composer, because he composed the score for four seasons of the television series. This is not user generated information. If you watch any episode of Black Love his name is listed in the end credits as "Music By Frank Cogliano". This is verifiable information and should be included.

The Village Voice article includes multiple quotes which qualifies for GNG. Considering his integral role in the performance the article would not have been written at all without his contribution.


 * I haven't disqualified the FSM source, however, if it does contain significant coverage then please could you share some of this with us for the benefit of those that are unable to access it? Per WP:IMDB, the Wikipedia community generally agrees that IMDb is an unreliable source and should be avoided where possible. In the case where it's impossible to avoid using IMDb because there are no suitable sources available, you really need to question whether that person is notable, as is the case with you. The Village Voice contains three quotes from you none of which addresses you but no actual third party coverage, which is a requirement. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 19:24, 14 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Hello Spiderone and thank you for your contribution. You are adressing me as "you" as if I am the author of the article. I am not. I also believe that you asking for a copy of a subscription only article is a copyright violation according to the policy of Film Score Monthly, so I cannot do that. You are welcome to subscribe, or maybe another user can verify. IMDB is used as a source in several other film and TV composer's Wikipedia page. As you said, IMDB is user generated just like Wikipedia is, and there is a rigorous review process for submissions, just like Wikipedia. For the example of Black Love, the on screen credits are verification of Frank Cogliano's work. This can be accessed through the OWN website by logging in to a US Television service provider. This seems unnecessary to add as a citation though, because for every other film and TV composer, IMDB is an adequate source for their work. The STL today article is another example that must be verified by another user before this is taken down, as you marked it as grounds for removal even though you can't access it.

As far as the Village Voice article, it seems that you misrepresented the content. First, you said it was three quotes. I've copied and pasted here the content of the article:

“The music in Barry Lyndon does a great job of reflecting the film’s sense of space,” says composer Frank Cogliano, who has been painstakingly transcribing the score for the past few months. “Look at the repetition. For the big duel scene at the end, you have this timpani part that’s playing these sixteen measures of Handel. It’s so little material, but it’s played in this way that goes on — I think one of the cues is eleven minutes. It’s always underlying, it’s always there. If you were to detach it from the movie, it would be monotonous.” In the context of the film, it’s relentless. From that perspective, Barry Lyndon is a bit of an outlier for the group — it’s older and relies on well-known classical pieces. But Kubrick didn’t port those tracks over indiscriminately: He worked with composer Leonard Rosenman to rearrange the pieces to fit the story. (Rosenman and Kubrick butted heads mightily, but the composer did walk away with an Oscar for his efforts.) In its original incarnation, the Sarabande from Handel’s Keyboard Suite in D Minor, the film’s signature theme, sounds nothing like the way it does in Barry Lyndon; Rosenman rearranged it completely to sound like contemporary soundtrack music. (Kubrick once recalled that he had the idea of using the piece after hearing it played on a guitar and realizing it sounded like Ennio Morricone.) There are subtler changes as well. Cogliano notes the final appearance of another of the best known pieces, Schubert’s Piano Trio in E-Flat Major. “With the Schubert, right at the end of the film, there’s a whole middle section that was more active and in the Romantic style that’s been cut out. And one of the major chords in the end was turned into a minor chord. It’s fascinating to zero in on those changes and then figure out why they were made and how they serve the film.” Barry Lyndon will be one of Wordless’s most ambitious undertakings. “It’s probably our longest performance,” says Pauline Kim Harris, first violin/concertmaster for the group. “It’s definitely the first one with an intermission.” The project originated with producers Joseph Berger and Michael Sayers, who came to Givony early last year with the idea of performing Kubrick’s film. It has taken the better part of a year to put all this together. Much of that involved giving Cogliano time to transcribe the score; unlike with other projects Wordless has done, an isolated music track was hard to come by. “I actually at this point have still not heard a completely music-only version of the film,” says the composer, who had to pinpoint each music cue, time it out, transcribe it, and arrange it. Once Cogliano delivers a score, Kim Harris and Givony create a rehearsal breakdown and go through the instrumentation to see the best way to cover the material. “We really don’t get to rehearse as much as one would like to think,” says Kim Harris. “Part of the benefit of Wordless is that these people are like a family. They’ve played a lot together, and they’ve been seasoned over the years.”

It is clear from this excerpt that Frank Cogliano's "Painstaking" work was integral to the performance, and the entire reason for the article, in the notable and reliable source the Village Voice. These are not three short insignificant quotes, they are demonstrating Frank Cogliano's expertise and knowledge in the field of music composition and orchestration.

I would also like to please request that before this article is deleted, that someone else besides myself can subscribe to Film Score Monthly and review the Frank Cogliano interview, which further details his indispensable work on the Barry Lyndon project.If you are unwilling to do that I've copied and pasted the 10 references in the article here : "composer and musical guru Frank Cogliano, whose many hats on this project start with “re,” as in researcher, restorer, rescuer, re-scorer, re-thinker, re-creator, re- arranger, and likely a few others. "

"My first shock regarding the music for a live-to-film Barry Lyndon was Cogliano informing me, “I’ve worked with Wordless several times, mostly with composers of the films to produce a live score and make it all go smoothly. This was different because there was no composer, and the arrangements were not available. I’ve researched music for many years, but never for a project on this scale.” I had naively presumed that as soon as Warner Bros. granted the rights, the conductor’s score and orchestral parts would arrive by FedEx. "

"The next shock was thinking Cogliano had made a mistake in identifying a Vivaldi E minor cello concerto movement as a sonata, only to realize the mistake was made in the film’s end titles and repeated on the OST LP, incorrectly identifying a sonata arrangement for full orchestra as a cello concerto. "

"Only Cogliano’s inclusion of the Peter Ryom Vivaldi complete works catalogue number saved me from hours, even days, of listening to Vivaldi’s massive number of cello works in order to find the correct piece. Then came the startling realization that Kubrick’s composer Leonard Rosenman had made arrangements of both an obscure Handel harpsichord suite Sarabande in D minor, and a famous Schubert piano Trio andante movement in E flat major, but had used pre-existing recorded versions of both the aforementioned Vivaldi and Mozart’s Idomeneo March."

"Here is Cogliano’s answer to my question about changes that Rosenman may have made to the Schubert Trio movement, the anachronistic but dramatically apt music that introduces Barry, and us, to Lady Lyndon: “The full second movement from the trio has a large section that was cut out. It goes through a series of modulations, and the restrained figure that introduces the moment is finally released and expanded upon. But that would have been inappropriate in the film, not only fully revealing the anachronism of the piece and its romantic style, but also because the trio is used as a sort of theme for Lady Lyndon, the epitome of suppressed emotions. The exuberance of the section that was cut out would be jarring against the placid imagery and restrained desperation of the film. There were also a few minor changes to notes, and shuffling of some measures, but I think that was to make it work as an abridged piece of music. The resulting cue, used twice, is made up largely of the C minor section, and the section in E flat major, first heard when Lady Lyndon and Barry kiss on the balcony. That subtle shift scores the moment perfectly. The fact that the piece is shortened to those two sections makes for much repetition, which is a device used throughout the score to create a sense of space. In contrast to dense musical material, repetitive figures cause cinematic time to expand, and this enhances the distances between objects and events, adding to typical Kubrick emotional detachment.” "

"The now famous Handel Sarabande, the third movement from a harpsichord suite in D minor, #437 in the Bernd Baselt Handel complete works catalogue, which would undoubtedly never occur to anyone as possessing the dramatic possibilities Kubrick declares lacking in 18th century music, becomes the first musical cue, the end titles, Barry’s two duels, and the emotionally devastating sequence wherein the narrator informs us that, although Barry was a “good and tender father,” he would end his life “poor, lonely, and childless.” The duels are achingly protracted by arrangements for tuned timpani, cello and bass pizzicato, a duet for viola and cello in close counterpoint, and abrasive triplet grunts in low cellos and basses—serving to create not only a sense of space referred to above by Cogliano, but also once again addressing the passage of time. I have seen different Warner Bros. logos at the film’s beginning, the one at Kings Theatre in black and white, the other in red and black on the DVD, in which the Handel cue comes right at the audience along with the Warner Bros. logo. Kubrick simply uses Rosenman’s arrangement as if it is the most dramatic piece of music ever composed, and it becomes exactly that."

"Cogliano wrote: “I could not find the score, so this one I had to transcribe by ear. This version is haunting and delicate. It suits the melancholy of the film perfectly, particularly the first scene in which it is heard, with Lady Lyndon in the bath. Lady Lyndon is being read ‘La Jouissance’ (1767) by (Barnabé) Durosoy, a florid poem comparing love to two mirrors reflecting light until it bursts into flames. The juxtaposition of the somber cello sonata with romantic poetry highlights Lady Lyndon’s despondence.” The Vivaldi arrangement is dramatically essential for audience identification with and sympathy for both Lady Lyndon and Lord Bullingdon."

"Another significant pre-existing recording is the March from Mozart’s opera Idomeneo (1781), edited to remove a vocal section and thereby allow the cadence to coincide precisely with Barry’s respectful heel clicks as he meets the Minister of Police. The Mozart March is first heard following extensive use of Frederick the Great’s “Der Hohenfriedberger Marsch.” Cogliano writes, commenting on Electra’s situation in Idomeneo: “You can see a connection with Barry here: His father was also killed, he was cast out of his home, and he seeks to attain higher social status. The piece to me is very similar to ‘Der Hohenfriedberger March’ but in a more refined style. This is reflected in how it is used in the film, with (Frederick the Great) heard when Barry is a soldier at the lowest point of his ascent, and then later Mozart is heard when he has achieved higher social status with the Chevalier.”"

"Barry’s collusion with the Chevalier to cheat at cards, and thereby acquire wealth and status, is beautifully scored by Rosenman with an arrangement of a cavatina from Giovanni Paisiello’s opera The Barber of Seville (1782). This is of particular musical interest, as I learned from Cogliano in an email: “I was unable to find a score for the full orchestra arrangement, but I found a piano vocal score which I used, along with transcribing by ear to produce the film version. It is very similar to other recordings I found, but in some of Kubrick’s notes he was particular about having the orchestra do additional takes because of particularities in the mandolin and viola solos. Since it is an aria sung by the Count to Rosina while he is in disguise, there is an obvious parallel here, as Barry is in disguise and cheating at cards with the Chevalier.” One may wonder whether those notes came from Kubrick or Rosenman, but the sonic vividness of the mandolin and viola respectively speak volumes about the comforts of the class system in Kubrick’s 18th century. "Since a substantial amount of music in the film’s first half is Irish and traditional, I wondered if that presented Cogliano with a different set of challenges. “The Irish music was not improvised, other than embellishments by performers, although I couldn’t find scores anywhere for those cues that matched exactly what was played. For example, there were a few like ‘The Sea-Maiden’ and ‘Piper’s Maggot Jig’ that are traditional, but the film versions differ from any score I could find. So it was much easier to just transcribe by ear. The most challenging thing was to copy exact timings on ‘Women of Ireland’ so that it could be matched up to a click track and sync with the film—only because that one in particular is played with a very loose rubato. It’s one of the most beautiful pieces in the film, though, and in Kubrick’s notes, there were references to an alternate ‘love theme’ to be used instead. I would like to hear what else was considered, but I think ‘Women of Ireland’ works as well as it does because it cannot be described as a simple love theme. The rising melody has a rich complexity of emotion, and it never resolves for long, leaving a constant state of suspension.” "


 * I would like to dispute your claim "He has never written for a notable composition". According to IMDB he has composed the score and or theme song for the following film and television works, deemed notable as being major releases in theaters by a major studio and/or broadcast on cable and or network television: TV Series Black Love, which is the most widely viewed scripted debut on the Oprah Winfrey network according to Wikipedia . He composed the theme song and score for Single By 30, also a notable work according to wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_by_30. he composed the score and theme for the following television films, all considered notable as they are all currently being rebroadcast on cable television in the US and internationally: Calling For Love, Love at Sunset Terrace, Tempted by Danger, Sincerely, Yours, Truly.


 * I would like to add that the Village Voice source qualifies as Significant coverage according to the wikipedia definition in GNG: Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, but it does not need to be the main topic of the source material.

The quotes are obviously more than a trivial mention. Even though Frank Cogliano is not the main topic of the source, which is not required anyway, the subject of the article is a live performance that he was an indispensable and integral part in creating, so much so that the performance could not have happened without him and his work.


 * You responded in place of Cogliano at User talk:Frankcogliano which made me think that you are Cogliano himself. All of the above, without exception, is either a direct quote from Cogliano himself or Cogliano talking about himself, none of which shows significant coverage about him. Where are the examples of other people discussing Cogliano at length? This is fast becoming a vanity shrine to Frank Cogliano and is wholly inappropriate. Wikiepdia is not a platform for promotion. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 20:20, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi Spiderone, I ppreciate your hard work on this! I'd like to add that this is not a "vanity shrine" at all because it is an objective collection of sources referencing the body of work of a notable film and tv composer. The STL Today article mentions Frank Cogliano, as does the Village Voice article. The Film Score Monthly is a detailed profile about his work. The FSM monthly article alone is grounds for his inclusion in Wikipedia as it is a detailed profile of his work. It includes quotes from him, as it is indeed an interview, but also the author's assessment of his work and contributions.


 * Hello Spiderone. According to the Wikipedia page on notability of musicians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_%28music%29#Criteria_for_musicians_and_ensembles) It requires that the subject "Has performed music for a work of media that is notable, e.g., a theme for a network television show, performance in a television show or notable film, inclusion on a notable compilation album, etc. "

Frank Cogliano has performed and composed the theme for Black Love, Single by Thirty, and also performed as guitarist in the Mortal Kombat film series. There are hundreds of such examples on his IMDB page. Further evidence can be found in his on-screen credits in the selected works, which verifies notability due to their public nature and individual notability, considering several of these works have their own Wikipedia page, confirming this. Thanks again!


 * Got any non-user-generated websites that confirm this? If he has been involved in so many notable productions, why is there practically zero in-depth coverage of him in national or international news sources or magazines or websites with a reputation for fact-checking? Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 21:43, 14 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Hi Spiderone. I've noticed you don't have access to the last source, but I have access to see the source when I've archived it. Maybe try it out, if you could. Here's the link .MoviesandTelevisionFan (talk) 22:20, 14 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Thank you! Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 08:07, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi Spiderone, thanks for your contribution to this page. It seems like you have a bias here and I think someone neutral needs to be involved. It sounds as if you are familiar with the subject and therefore would be disqualified from deleting the article based on the conflict of interest policy. Your last statement acknowledged his work in many notable productions, which was discussed earlier in the conversation regarding IMDB. I’m not sure what you are asking, could you please clarify? Are you implying the work is fabricated? I’m not sure what the process would be aside from sending you videos of all the works to show the on-screen credits. IMDB reviews are user generated but film and tv credits are fact checked as per the link previously given in this conversation. There are many articles on living composers in Wikipedia that have far fewer if any news sources cited, relying on IMDB credits. I don’t think all of these other Wikipedia pages should be deleted as well, do you? Thank you for your time and effort but I believe the conversation has been exhausted and the banner should be removed.


 * You have been asked at User talk:Frankcogliano to declare your COI but have failed to do so thus far. Your defence of having the exact same name as Frank Cogliano but not being Cogliano himself seems pretty hard to believe to say the least. As per WP:IMDB, which is reflective of current Wikipedia consensus, all content on IMDb is user-generated, not just the user reviews. IMDb has played host to several long-lasting hoaxes in the past and several of them go through AfD every year. Many of the actors deleted at WikiProject Deletion sorting/Actors and filmmakers/archive 3 have IMDb pages, it doesn't mean anything. Mortal Kombat + Frank Cogliano fails verification. As does Black Love + Frank Cogliano. No reliable sources. Above all else, there is still no argument of passing WP:BASIC, WP:GNG or WP:ANYBIO. Please present WP:THREE sources showing significant in-depth coverage from a reliable source and coming from someone other than Cogliano himself. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 08:16, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Hello Spiderone. You have been asked to disclose your COI and have not yet done so. All cliams you have maid thus far are invalid until you disclose your relationship with the subject of the article. Your tone is not neutral and your claims have been nullified numerous times. You are accusing the subject of the article of a "hoax" which is grounds for legal action. The three sources (and many more) have already been given multiple times in this discussion. 74.101.56.203 (talk) 18:46, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I have been editing Wikipedia regularly for 12 years. I'm not a paid editor. I don't have any connection with Cogliano, in fact, I've never even heard of him. I've done a comprehensive source analysis at the top of this discussion, where I clearly explain why the mentions are trivial and do not count towards GNG. This has not been countered effectively. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 23:05, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: This needs further input from editors other than the IP address & the nominator.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Daniel (talk) 01:17, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete I don't see sufficient significant coverage in reliable sources; I've tried looking and come up with nothing more than what's here. I agree that the crucial missing element is enough of other people talking about Frank Cogliano at any particular length. Maybe that will happen in the future. The IP should note that the issue with IMDb is not that all entries are hoaxes, but that the existence of hoaxes establishes IMDb as not a reliable source. Wikipedia is also not a reliable source for Wikipedia articles. I would also ask the IP to read WP:THREAT. (That said, their dedication to defending someone with whom they have no connection at all is to be admired.) OsFish (talk) 06:46, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete, not up to snuff, so snuff it. Hyperbolick (talk) 08:25, 22 July 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.