Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Franklin Elementary School (Westfield, New Jersey)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was no consensus, defaulting to keep. Can&#39;t sleep, clown will eat me 22:12, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Franklin Elementary School
While it seems that 50,000,000 Elvis Fans Can't Be Wrong and as a result high schools have this false patina of "notability", I cannot believe this extends to elementary schools. I quite like Dpbsmith's "BEEFSTEW" test (which I keep meaning to refine for my own personal analysis). Without imputing any endorsement by Dpbsmith, this school gets one point (for having a photo of the school). Schools are not inherently notable, WP:SCHOOLS did not pass and is not binding one way or another, and precedent is not supposed to apply. Without a firm policy, each article must be judged on its own merits. I'd say that this article, based on its own merits, has no encyclopedic value and must go. Agent 86 17:48, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete: The article says that it's an elementary school.  That's pretty much a restatement of the title.  Oh, and it's at a specific address (thanks, Yellow Pages) and part of a district.  The school may or may not be the center of the known universe, but the article gives us nothing to work with but a Photoshopped picture.  Geogre 18:03, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep -- It doesn't matter what kind of school it is. The school project has established that there is an organized group of people at Wikipedia out to delete all schools. You can't let them get started with their deleting. That is why the school project exists. Capit 18:37, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment user created brand new account specifically to participate in (or influence) one particular vote or area of discussion, see "I got involved with Wikipedia because I was told there was extreme hostitity toward high schools and that it was very necessary for me to vote to defend them." Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 12:28, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Please, let's not have debates with straw man sock puppets. --Rob 00:21, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Please take a look at WP:Assume good faith. I take umbrage at the suggestion I'm part of some sort of organized conspiracy. Furthermore, there is no policy that says that the creation of a Wikiproject conveys any sort of notabilty. Agent 86 19:13, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Capit was blocked indef as an sockpuppet Jaranda wat's sup 20:32, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

*Keep - all schools are notable. There should be not quibbling about this. The school project is maintained because of this continual threat to delete school! Trunk 21:39, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep. schools are notable. Benji64 19:04, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. A very few elementary schools might be notable, e.g. historically important schools founded by famous educators to demonstrate an important educational philosophy. Maria Montessori's "Children's House" in San Lorenzo, Rome, Summerhill, Froebel's 1837 Play and Activity Institute in Germany are notable. Most elementary schools are not notable, and this one isn't. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:13, 25 July 2006 (UTC) Hmmm. Play and Activity Institute is a redlink. How about Pflege-, Spiel- und Beschäftigungsanstalt? Nope, that's red, too. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:38, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Strong delete For the love of god, WP:SCHOOLS FAILED! Even if people can argue that high schools are inherently notable (upon which I generally- but not always- agree), elemntary schools are absolutely not. There's no special significance stated for this school, and as a result, it should be deleted. -- Kicking222 20:36, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Definite Keep I (being the author of the page) do not see why people may say that this school is not "notable". This school has consistently been rated in the top 100 elementary schools in the state, and I thought it would be nice to showcase it. I'm trying to build pages for all of the schools in my town. In response to Geogre's comment, this picture has not been photoshopped. I do not see why an attempt at showcasing an elementary school is seen as total misuse of Wikipedia. You may delete this page if you want, but I find that a true injustice. Mikeeilbacher 21:22, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * User has less than 25 edits, mostly voting keeps on AFDs Jaranda wat's sup 01:48, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Struck, sockpuppet of User:capit, see Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Listerin. Kevin_b_er 23:08, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Strong delete. WP:SCHOOL is a failed guideline, and the creation of a wikiproject does not confer notability to all its subjects. Furthermore, I move that any keep votes citing only a conspiracy for deletion be disregarded, as they violate WP:AGF. Just because one school article gets deleted doesn't mean they all will (and don't try to persuade me otherwise). --Core des at talk. o.o;; 22:14, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Strong Delete - There is no school guidline, and for all of you who think that all schools are inherantly notable due to precedent, you're wrong. The nom had it right- the precedent is for all high schools to be inherantly notable, not for all schools in general. --PresN 22:25, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep -- What makes a High School inherantly notable? There is no way that you can give evidence that one school has precedent over another due to the type of school. Deleting this page would be an injustice. What is the point of writing about something important to you and your town when another article takes precedent over it purely by type? Mikeeilbacher 22:33, 25 July 2006 (UTC) duplicate "vote" has been striked. Silensor 22:44, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment. Please only "vote" once. If you have further comments, then please make them, but as this is really a discussion towards consensus, repeated keep "votes" don't matter. To answer your (rhetorical) question, I say that nothing makes a high school inherently notable. Wikipedia isn't a local directory. Agent 86 22:40, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment. I'm sorry for voting twice, that was not what I intended. This page was not set up as a local directory. It was intended solely for informational purposes. Mikeeilbacher 23:35, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep as per Schools/Arguments. Schools are notable, and Notability is not policy, it is an essay.  Silensor 22:43, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Merge with Westfield Public Schools unless significantly expanded. (edit conflict)  Yamaguchi先生 22:46, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Strong Delete per Dpbsmith and Kicking222. Among elementary schools (and I'd also say middle schools), only the most noteworthy should be included here; the average ones shouldn't.  Else, we should be including pages on every church (not just very large or otherwise well-known ones), every sports venue (not just professional ones), every restaurant, every gym, and so forth.  We're not a web directory or a telephone directory. --Idont Havaname (Talk) 23:16, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep. Firstly, "notability" or the lack thereof is not a valid deletion criterion for schools, and attempts to make it so in previous discussions have failed.  I understand that the nominator does not believe that schools are inherently notable and that belief is fine as a justification for a vote or even a nomination, but just because you say that schools aren't inherently notable doesn't make it so. I believe that schools are inherently notable as do many others and it is partly the rationale behind my vote. The failure to reach a consenus at WP:SCHOOL does not mean that elementary schools or indeed any schools are thusly to be excised from wikipedia.  Many of us who participated at WP:SCHOOL who support the expansion and inclusion of school-related articles also rejected that proposal as too restrictive.--Nicodemus75 23:45, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment. I did not say my basis for deletion was lack of notability. If that was the sole reason, I'd have kept my peace. My main basis was that it is not encyclopedic ("this article, based on its own merits, has no encyclopedic value and must go"). I agree, an article cannot be included or excluded on the basis of notability alone, but it would be foolish to say that notabilty cannot be a criterion which is considered in the light of all other factors. To determine whether something is encyclopedic, we have to have some sort of rational criteria to make that determination. One of those means is WP:NOT. How does this article expand our knowledge and understanding of schools? How is this article not just an indiscriminate directory listing? All in all, argumentum ad infinitum has prevailed to make high schools "inherently" encyclopedic (or notable). Now that proposition is being extended to elementary schools (a slippery slope the nay-sayers said wouldn't happen). It strikes me as an odd double-standard that the local elementary school is now somehow worthy of an article, but the church next door to it or the little league playing in its field is not (not that they should be). I need to provide a reason why the article is not encyclopedic (which I believe I did, you're free to disagree). It is not for me to prove lack of notability; however, if someone wants to maintain that something is encyclopedic because, in part, it is notable, they'd better offer more convincing criteria than repetition. Agent 86 00:22, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete Consensus has been that elementary schools are not inherantly notable, and there is no other claim of notability. There isn't, really, any useful info any anyone looking up the page wouldn't already know. -Goldom ‽‽‽ ⁂ 00:25, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Please cite your sources for this "consensus" you speak of. This page suggests otherwise.  Silensor 00:28, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep As per consensus This page HIGH SCHOOLS ARE INHERENTLY NOTABLE GG -- Librarianofages 00:52, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment Um, this is not a high school... --Core des at talk. o.o;; 00:59, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment Thank you. Mikeeilbacher 01:00, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete one line entry with a photo that is about to be deleted due to copyright infringement. Not to mention the resolution is so low it is not that useful.  How many Franklin Elementary Schools are there in the US? Is this one more notable than the others? David D. (Talk) 01:42, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment I never said that this Franklin School is anymore important than any other Franklin School that might exist. No other school has stepped up and created a page. Mikeeilbacher 16:13, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete per Daycd, if that fails, Merge Jaranda wat's sup 01:44, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete no content Luigi30 (Ta&lambda;k) 01:50, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Merge into Westfield Public Schools &mdash; information, but not worthy of its own article. —   01:51, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete or merge. Non-notable elementary school, WP:NOT a directory, no content. --Fang Aili talk 01:59, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep, verifiable. If article doesn't expand much, then merge with Westfield Public Schools.  JYolkowski // talk 02:14, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Strong delete wikipedia is not a directory listing. Also per nom and Coredesat. -- Koffieyahoo 02:20, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete Article contains no assertion of notability. If the subject is not notable, keeping it violates the WP:NOT rule that Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information.  GRBerry 03:20, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment Librarianofages, shouting, like repetition, is not persuasive (and I thought shouting was not allowed in libraries). Neither is a critical review of the so-called Schoolwatch page. It is not a record of consensus, and it is not accurate. I should note it is not entirely wrong for Schoolwatch to be biased (and as a user page it's not subject to WP:NPOV), as its creator is obviously of the opinion that all school articles must be kept and he is entitled to that opinion. However, what is wrong is for it to be misleading, depending on what purpose it is used for. As a record of "keep" and "delete", it's fine. However, if used by anyone for the purpose to "prove" consensus or anything beyond a track record, it is not. I've spent (wasted?) a ton of time actually checking the actual discussions of many, many of the articles. If "Schoolwatch" was really being fair, and if it was required to be of a neutral point of view (which a user page does not), then it would indicate which "keep" results were really because of a lack of consensus. I've counted at least a dozen high schools that in the past few months only survived because of a lack of consensus. It's also not an exhaustive list - there are school articles that had AfD discussions that are not on Schoolwatch (some were keep, some were delete, some were no consensus - to be fair, more were keep than delete). I also don't think it's fair to include in the count articles on what are not individual high schools or elementary schools, but are school-related subjects, like school districts or the odd university (although these do not puff up the numbers in a significant way). To say that the Schoolwatch list is "proof" of consensus (which Schoolwatch does not expressly state, but other users rely on that summary) is not at all correct. Based upon my long review, I suggest that Schoolwatch does not provide a reasonable basis on which one can conclude that there is a consensus, one way or another, keep or delete. Agent 86 03:33, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment. It is true that the page being linked is anaemic and incomplete.  The user in question was banned long ago and others sporadically maintain that page.  Tha being said, Watch/schoolwatch/Schools for deletion archive is an accurate and virtually all-inclusive listing of all school article discussions since January of 2005.  There may be the occasional AfD missing, but it would be very rare.  A number of editors contibute regularly, who hold mulitple views on the noteworthiness of schools.  Universities, colleges and other post secondary schools are included on the page, but AfDs on these sorts of schools are so rare as be inconsequential.  It is a fact that not a single, verifiable high school article has been deleted through the wikipedia deletion processes in the past 2 years (substubs, hoaxes, copyvios, etc. notwithstanding).  As to whether or not the result is recorded as "keep" or "no consensus" is really irrelevant because policy states that no consensus is keep.  In an AfD discussion is not about whether or not there is a lack of consensus to keep an article, it is about whether or not there is a consensus to delete or not.  There is no consensus to delete high school articles on the basis of their being "non-notable" or "unencylopedic" or "unimportant".  Since no consensus exists to delete such articles, they stay.  Also, since Grider's "schoolwatch" page is also called schoolwatch, you are confusing it with the page I have linked in some senses, most editors would consider Watch/schoolwatch/Schools for deletion archive to be "Schoolwatch", not Grider's old page.  You may wish to review that page rather than try to dredge through individual AfDs on your own, it really is unnecessary to do so. It should also be noted that some admins routinely close high schools as "no censensus" irrespective of predominating discussion in an AfD itself.  I remember a VfD from last year where there was a solitary delete vote and about 25 keep votes and the closing admin still closed "no consensus" on the basis that school deletions are contentious.  For the record, could you please point to the "at least a dozen high schools that in the past few months only survived because of a lack of consensus."??? I would like to see the specific "dozen" you are referring to. I can only find 2 such high schools since January, which were 9-5 and 9-4 in favor of keep - hardly "no consensus" by the traditional intrepretation on Wikipedia.  A clear majority to keep is generally considered a consensus by most closing admins.--Nicodemus75 07:36, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you, that was very informative. I wish that had been the link that was originally posted! As for the list I referred to, I decided I had better things to do in real life than re-create the wheel, but did save a list (on a different computer). I'll try to dig that up as soon as I can. Agent 86 23:26, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Strong delete Not notable Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 10:34, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep so sick of debating this point...  ALKIVAR &trade;[[Image:Radioactive.svg|18px|]] 12:06, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment This statement does not contain a reason for keeping this article. It might contain an implicit reference to an argument that all schools should have an article, but the community has long since rejected that argument.  GRBerry 12:48, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Schools on the south side are Jefferson Elementary School with 583 students, McKinley Elementary School with 311 students, Tamaques Elementary School with 479 students and Thomas Alva Edison Intermediate School with 710 students." I'm pretty sure anyone with a first grade education can add three and three and get six. Second, where are you getting this number of 5,000? I know that all 29,644 people in Westfield would care about this page. Plus, I'm sure the more than 5,000 alumni of the school would be interested. Mikeeilbacher 12:27, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment &mdash; My preference would be for most schools below the High School level to be merged into the school district articles, where possible. It looks like this school is already mentioned on the school district page and there doesn't appear to be much else of note worth merging. &mdash; RJH (talk) 15:00, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment You people have ruined what was a well-intentioned attempt at writing an article. If this is the type of reception an article gets during it's first stages, then there is no reason to even write on Wikipedia. Mikeeilbacher 16:17, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment Please see WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF. Actually, both sides may need to look at them. --Core des at talk. o.o;; 17:13, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep Verifiable article about a real world institution. Piccadilly 17:16, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete Just a school, its existence has been noted in Westfield Public Schools. Catchpole 17:32, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment I have decided that this article is not worth the debate that it has received. I realize that schools are not notable, and feel that this page should be deleted, as to not cause any controversy. Although I am not going to revoke my vote of "keep", I will not longer try to debate my point. Mikeeilbacher 20:01, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Listen, let's sit down and have a nice cup of tea. While I disagree with the encyclopedic value of this specific article, my nomination is not an attack on the quality of the article or the editors who have contributed to the article (including you). If you think there is merit in this article, say your piece and stand for what you believe in. If the nomination succeeds, you've held true to yourself, and if it fails, you've managed to preserve what you think is important. I would encourage you not to throw your hands up in the air and give up, especially before the discussion is closed. If I were the closing admin (and I'm not an admin), I'd certainly still consider what you had to say despite your waving the white flag. Agent 86 20:29, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * You're right, but I clearly see your point. In the beginning I was fighting this purely on the fact that I don't want anyone deleting my work. This page is not necessary to for people to learn about education, but I still believe that it should have a place in Wikipedia. I propose a solution that should not anger everyone: I suggest creating a page ( perhaps titled "Notable Schools in New Jersey"), and letting anyone write about a school that they want to schowcase. This would allow for schools to express themselves, without compromising the encyclopedic values of Wikipedia. It may sound stupid, but I truly think this could be a solution.Mikeeilbacher 22:30, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete. Geogre has it in one. This article is nothing but a bare phonebook entry. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 00:47, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * keep please this school is important and verifiable too Yuckfoo 04:20, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete per A Man in Black. --Kuzaar-T-C- 12:58, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep - in addition to the usual justifications for keeping schools with verifiable information, the nomination states "I'd say that this article, based on its own merits, has no encyclopedic value and must go." As much as I try to understand the deletionist mentality, I fail to see why the solution is not to improve the article. Given that the nominator acknowledges this possibility, what on earth is lost by letting it evolve into a more encyclopedic article. I have added information to this article in the past, while others stand idly by. Instead of adding to and improving articles, I lose far too much time each day dealing with both vandals and deletionists. Sometimes it's hard to tell who's causing more damage: the ones trying to screw up Wikipedia or the ones trying to clean it up. Alansohn 18:45, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Please read WP:Assume good faith. The nomination was made in good faith and I stand by it. I should also add that the (apparently derogatory) use of the word "deletionist" is indeed "prejudicial" (per your edit summary). I will "vote", and have "voted", to keep school articles which are in fact encyclopedic. You may also wish to read WP:NOT and tell me why this is not indiscriminate information (and why arbitrarily keeping all schools would not be indiscriminate) or why this is not simply a directory entry. Agent 86 18:51, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I would love to assume good faith. But your nomination starts by saying While it seems that 50,000,000 Elvis Fans Can't Be Wrong and as a result high schools have this false patina of "notability".... Which part of "false patina of notability" demonstrates good faith? Indiscriminate would be List of items I ate for lunch today, TV shows I don't like or Items John Smith bought at the supermarket on June 12, 1943. This is not an indiscriminate bunch of information. If you believe that this article is no different from these two proposed article, I think we have a fundamental bit of confusion on what Wikipedia is about. (P.S. see extreme prejudice for a definition of the term, especially the final definition). Alansohn 19:02, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I prefer my Oxford or Webster's to a reference needing a citation. Agent 86 19:39, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * There's the problem: You still have a mentality that "real" information is what's in Oxford or Webster's. This is the Information Age now, and we find things on Wikipedia. Try it. Alansohn 19:48, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * List of items I ate for lunch today, School of little interest save to those who live in its district...I see little difference. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 19:42, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * List of items I ate for lunch today, number of potentially interested parties = one (zero, if you saw what I ate today); Franklin Elementary School (Westfield, New Jersey), number of potentially interested parties = 29,644 people who live in the Town + all those who attended the school and moved out + people (like me) who have an interest in education. Still don't see a difference? Next look at the contents of these two articles: Lunch (indicriminate items); School (useful, verifiable information). You may not be interested in this particular article, but that doesn't justify deletion. Alansohn 19:56, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Hm. 600 or so students, so each of those students has 500 parents? Where is 29K coming from? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 20:02, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I thought it would be clear. See Westfield, New Jersey for the source of the number. Alansohn 20:38, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Even assuming every single person in the district was interested in this school, that town has four elementary schools. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 20:40, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Would you PLEASE research your information before you make accusations? If you even listened to Alansohn, you would know that the town has six elementary schools. There is not point debating against someone who doesn't even know the subject matter. Mikeeilbacher 00:37, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * See, I'm blind in my left eye. Can't see a thing. Could you help me out and quote where Alansohn said that there are six elementary schools? I just clicked that nice little link he gave me, and, lo and behold, that article said that there are four.
 * That said, that cuts the pool of potentially-interested people even thinner. Wikipedia doesn't have articles on books that only sell 5000 copies, Wikipedia doesn't have articles on people who know 5000 people, Wikipedia doesn't have articles on stores that have 5000 customers, and I don't think it should have an article on a school that, in the entire world, 5000 or less people are going to care about. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 07:25, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * On the "nice little link", it says, in pretty clear english, unless of course you are illiterate, "The public schools on the north side consist of Franklin Elementary School with 586 students, Washington Elementary School with 334 students, Wilson Elementary School with 531 students and Theodore Roosevelt Intermediate School [1] with 737 students.
 * Comment. Please read WP:Assume good faith instead of assuming that the term "deletionist" is "derogatory". Re-citing WP:NOT in this manner may express why you think school articles are not inherently noteworthy, but it doesn't make it so. Those of us who hold that schools are inherently noteworthy would suggest (and often have suggested) that articles about schools are not indiscriminate information for precisely the same reason that articles about cities, towns, municipalities, etc. which in some cases have a smaller population than most schools nominated for AfD are not indiscriminate. That would be the belief that schools are as inherently noteworthy on the basis of their being schools, as such towns or municipaliies are inherently noteworthy on the basis of their being municipalities.--Nicodemus75 19:29, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep. This article could clearly be improved, but it's verifiable as it is. --Myles Long 22:13, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment to closing admin, this article should not be deleted as it was already been merged per the GFDL, try to count the deleted votes as Merge and redirect. Thanks Jaranda wat's sup 23:00, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete. Merge as always is not a good vote since it gets counted as a keep.  Until that changes, Delete is the correct vote for cases like this.  Of course since it was merged already.  This should be changed to a redirect and the discussion closed.  Vegaswikian 21:42, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep and allow for organic growth, this school is notable. Bahn Mi 21:58, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep purposeful article on worthwhile topic. AFD is pointless waste of resources.  I won't accept random deletions of articles, with total disregard for precedent, and thereby disregard for consistancy.  Such a random approach discredits Wikipedia.     --Rob 23:24, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep. Schools are worth writing about, because they give kids something that they can identify with on Wikipedia. We should make all efforts to educate youth on how to be good Wikipedians. --Elonka 00:37, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep this article which helps expand our knowledge and understanding of education in Westfield, if we happen to be interested, and does us no harm if we are not. Kappa 20:29, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Merge into Westfield Public Schools or Delete. I'm ok with high schools, but elementry schools is pushing the limit of random collection of information. Kevin_b_er 23:08, 29 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.