Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Franzen (cyclist)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. The "keep" arguments consists only of a reference to WP:NOLYMPICS, a guideline according to which "athletes from any sport are presumed notable" for participating in the Olympics. But they do not recognize that this guideline, like other topic-specific notability guidelines, only establish a rebuttable presumption of notability. The "delete" side makes persuasive arguments that there are no sources about these people except for their Olympic statistics, which the "keep" side doesn't address.  Sandstein  19:58, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Franzen (cyclist)

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Yes, he competed at the Olympics, which indicates that he probably meets WP:NSPORTS. However, cases like this are the exception to that rule. He is one of more than 50 (!) French cyclists to compete in that one event alone, so not really (or at least not necessary) one of the very best of his own country. We only have a surname, no indication of anything else, which after 120 years and quite a few people researching Olympic athletes seems to indicate that nothing more is available about him (usually we have at least a first name, and a date or year of birth, which allows some further research). Even if we do find a "Franzen" in old newspapers, there would be no way of knowing if it is the same man unless it would explicitly include his Olympic participation. Official sources know nothing further. Even for his one participation, all we know if the event and heat he participated in: we don't know his eventual position, his time, ... nothing at all. Fram (talk) 13:39, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Fram (talk) 13:39, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Cycling-related deletion discussions. Fram (talk) 13:39, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of France-related deletion discussions. Fram (talk) 13:39, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Also nominated for the exact same reason (no info, no first name or at most an initial, no identifying information or actual significant information available or possible to find) are the following:
 * Pouget (cyclist)
 * L. Dumont
 * Dubourdieu (cyclist)
 * Saignier
 * Vianzino (an Italian, but no difference otherwise)
 * L. Boyer (cyclist)
 * A. Roger
 * Ruez
 * L. Saunière

They all participated in the same event at the same Olympics (an event for which there are also still 13 redlinks with the exact same characteristics)... Fram (talk) 13:47, 5 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep I don't understand why these articles are being deleted. There is no "exception" meaning that Olympic athletes with little to no personal information don't deserve to have articles. All of the above mentioned competed in the 1900 Summer Olympics, and per WP:NOLYMPICS, that makes them notable. Lettlerhello 13:58, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Italy-related deletion discussions. Lettlerhello 14:57, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
 * No, it's a common misunderstanding. NOLYMPICS means that they are presumed notable: the top of the page makes this more clear, with things like "These are merely rules of thumb which some editors choose to keep in mind when deciding whether or not to keep an article that is on articles for deletion", " occasional exceptions may apply" etcetera. The reason for this SNG is given at the top of the page, in the nutshell, where the second part is essential here: "and so is likely to have received significant coverage in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject." So, they are presumed notable because they are likely to have received coverage: but in the cases nominated here (and presumably similar other ones), it is likely that this "presumed" coverage doesn't actually exist, seeing that even the best databases and official sources haven't even been able to find the first names, year of birth, ... of these athletes, which were not some exceptional top of their country representatives, but basically anyone who wanted to participate (which is obviously not the case for most later Olympic games). In short, we have the guideline because most Olympians are notable and that is thus rhe default state: but there are exceptions to that rule, it is not some infallible bright line. There is nothing more to say about any of these athletes, because we don't really know who they were or what they did apart from this one event where they participated but no one bother to even record their position, time, or even their full name Fram (talk) 15:08, 5 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep Passes WP:NOLYMPICS. Also not an appropriate bundle since these could potentially have very different coverage. Regardless, they're notable. Smartyllama (talk) 17:17, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete True he might pass a guideline if you don't read the entirety of it. But I agree with Fram. There are no sources to write a biography with, so what info can ever be added to this page? What's the point in having a biography when you can't find important information about the person in the first place? There are no presumed coverage because this person was one of fifty other participants in a race that wasn't even fully tracked. Valeince (talk) 00:27, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete It is time we applied GNG to all. There is no reason to think this person is notable based on sourcing, and considering what it took to get in the Olympics before WWI, which was not much at all, having one everyone entering is notable standard for all time is just ludicous.John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:51, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete - These athletes aren't notable, especially L. Boyer (cyclist), as we don't even know his first name. 🌴Koridas🌴 (Negotiate) 18:08, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep per WP:NOLYMPICS and all the arguments always made every time one of these comes up. -- Jonel (Speak to me) 00:53, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep passes WP:NOLY. The claim that "we only have a surname, no indication of anything else, which after 120 years and quite a few people researching Olympic athletes seems to indicate that nothing more is available about him" is erroneous, as per lots of examples on WP, such as Jack Bishop (cyclist), who was at J. H. Bishop until very recently.  Lugnuts  Fire Walk with Me 17:08, 10 June 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.