Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fred Martinez


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 00:01, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Fred Martinez

 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

One more of the many memorial biographies for victims of crime. Neither the person nor the crime are not even barely notable. The article pushes the POV that it was a hate crime. Also, I had to remove passages accusing some people of murder that has gone without sources at least since February 2007. We need to get ride of these memorials. Not every crime is a hate crime, not every crime is notable, not every crime-victim is notable... Damiens .rf 07:03, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete I minored in queer studies at college not that long ago and I've never heard of this case. No sources (though the BLP tag that was being used to denote that was a bit puzzling) and external links to a memorial? WP:NOTMEMORIAL. List of victims of the Virginia Tech massacre, referring an infinitely more notable event, wound up being redirected to the article on the crime. If the crime were notable, I'd suggest doing that (or renaming this article), but it doesn't seem that it is. Nosleep  break my slumber 07:16, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep per documentary film, and repeated mention / use of case. WP:BLP1E; WP:1E "The significance of an event or individual should be indicated by how persistent the coverage is in reliable secondary sources." pohick (talk) 14:31, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Pohick2, please use edit preview when making your edits rather than making so many consecutive edits in so short a time. It prevents edit conflicts, and clogging up recent changes, and page history. And I must say, the sources you've presented don't really establish notability:

1. ^ "Obituaries Fred C. Martinez Jr.". Cortez Journal. July - August 2001.

An obituary merely tells that someone died. It does not comment on the notability of the death of the individual. This particular obituary does not even give the details of the subject's death.

2. ^ "Navajo Teen Death May Be Hate Crime". The Associated Press. July 12, 2001.

A reliable source. WP:GNG requires significant mention in multiple, though.

3. ^ Death in Cortez, CO, Hate Crime Killings

This is a letter written by someone who has a clear agenda in the situation. Not even a source, let alone a reliable one.

4. ^ Jon Barrett (09-OCT-01). "Getting along in Cortez: in the aftermath of the matter of transgendered Navajo Fred Martinez Jr., a Colorado town faces its dark side, and Martinez's mother faces life without her bestfriend". The Advocate.

I don't know if The Advocate is considered a reliable source, but I don't think it should be. It can't be considered neutral in a lot of what it writes.

5. ^ JEREMY QUITTNER (August 28, 2001). "Death of a Two Spirit". The Advocate.

The Advocate, again.

6. ^ http://www.coavp.org/content/view/34/44/

Trivial mention. The article is not about Martinez.

7. ^ http://www.tampabaycoalition.com/files/604ShaunMurphyGets40Years.htm

This is a reprint of a number of articles from local (to the area of the crime) newspapers. I don't think local newspapers can lend notability to a subject.

8. ^ "Case closed in Colorado.". The Advocate. 09-JUL-02.

The Advocate, again.

9. ^ http://www.coavp.org/content/view/34/44/

Exact duplicate of source 6. Trivial mention.

10. ^ SARA CORBETT (October 14, 2001). "Does a Sex Change Mean the End of the Relationship?".

Trivial mention, which is pretty clear by the title of the article.

11. ^ http://nhts.net/media/Addressing%20Two-Spirits%20-%20Participant's%20Manual%20(25).pdf

This appears to be a workbook of some sort. Mention of Martinez, but only in questions to be filled out which follow. This is only used to source the statement it is used as study materials, but that doesn't make the subject notable.

12. ^ David Campos (2002). Sex, youth, and sex education. ABC-CLIO. p. 142. ISBN 9781576077764.

One-paragraph mention in a 300-page book.

13. ^ Robert B. Coates, Ph.D (March 2006). "Responding to Hate Crimes through Restorative Justice Dialogue". Contemporary Justice Review: 7 - 21.

The link does not mention Martinez; it's a link to a general page for the "Contemporary Justice Review." Likely a trivial mention, though of course I can't say for certain.

14. ^ http://www.gpac.org/archive/news/notitle.html?cmd=view&archive=news&msgnum=0387

This is an interview with Martinez's mother by the "Gender Public Advocacy Coalition." Not likely a neutral outlet.

15. ^ http://www.gpac.org/youth/news.html?cmd=view&archive=news&msgnum=0353

Same group as above, and a trivial mention at that.

16. ^ http://polis.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=124494

Trivial mention of the case in a larger article about a hate crimes bill.

17. ^ http://www.c-spanarchives.org/congress/?q=node/77531&id=8111909

Looks to be a transcript of a speech by Ted Kennedy on the floor of the United States Senate, for much the same purposes as source 16. Martinez is one of numerous cases Kennedy mentions.

18. ^ http://glsen.org/cgi-bin/iowa/all/booklink/record/1697.html

Links to a tribute film, almost certainly non-notable.

19. ^ http://www.breckfilmfest.com/home/movie.php?film_ID=835

Another link to the same film.

20. ^ http://www.twospirits.org/

Another film about Martinez, but again, not notable.

21. ^ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1296906/

Fun fact: A guy in my Drama 101 class at college had an IMDb page, and he was a 19-year-old pothead at the time. (OK, serious wording: IMDb has long been held to be an unreliable source for anything other than airing and screening dates).

It all adds up to non-notability of the case and the subject. Listen, it's a tragedy that this kid was killed for being who he was. But that doesn't mean he or his case automatically satisfies Wikipedia's notability guidelines. Nosleep break my slumber 21:08, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 1 - establishes dob
 * 2 - establishes 'who says' "hate crime", the AP
 * 3 - verifiable source, with a POV not mine
 * If you have a problem with neutrality then flag don't delete, and to be consistent go AfD Brandon Teena, Gwen Araujo as well.
 * Thank you, I'll look at those articles. If their subjects are non-notable, then I certainly will AFD them. Nosleep  break my slumber 23:10, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Araujo's notability is a bit questionable to me, but it seems to be lent from the TV movie about her case, which aired on cable. As that article is plainly an atrocity, something needs to be done to it. As far as Teena, call me when the film on Martinez wins an Academy Award, then I'll gladly change my vote to keep. In any case, notability or lack of notability of separate subjects has no bearing an a particular article's claim of notability. Nosleep  break my slumber 09:55, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 6 - it supports the quote "beat up a fag"
 * 9 - it supports the statement rising trend of anti-LGBT violence.
 * 10 - it supports the connection to Brandon Teena, which is not OR.
 * 11 - workbook when you go to Human male sexuality you see the transgender elaborated on (of course flagged as POV)
 * 13 - you speculate about the content of a journal article, that says in the abstract he is 1 of 3 case studies
 * 14 - again neutrality of verifiable source is not relevant to notability.
 * 16 - goes to show continuing remembrance by members of congress, when they propose their hate crime legislation annually (on the point of notability)
 * 17 - ditto
 * 18 - tribute? subject of a film
 * 19 - film shown at film festival in 2009 years after event (i.e. not a home movie)
 * 20 - what evidence do you have that the documentary film is not notable?
 * 21 - funny, did he have a documentary film about him as a subject?
 * the citations go directly to the point: "The significance of an event or individual should be indicated by how persistent the coverage is in reliable secondary sources." in fact there is continuing coverage in films, on Capitol Hill, in study materials. this is not a memorial article, but a LGBT one, do you have a problem with that? pohick (talk) 23:01, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, please. Yes, I have a "problem" with this article because it's "a LGBT one." You might want to reread my vote statement. Nosleep  break my slumber 09:55, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, many of these sources accurately reference statements made in the article. What none of them do is show the notability of the subject or the crime (as I said above, if the crime were notable, this could be moved to "Murder of Fred Martinez" or something sufficiently NPOV, but it doesn't seem that that is, either). Nosleep break my slumber 23:08, 14 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment. Noms motivations may be noble however this is at least the fifth article on transgneder murder victims they have tried to recast generally blaming the victims and reducing them in various nihilistic ways. I find this quite troubling. There is a difference between NPOV and mythologizing murders. Every other article, BTW is still intact as well although they seem terribly interested in stubbing them down in any way possible. -- Banj e  b oi   03:03, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I was wondering if I was the only person noticing this about the nom. So are you saying keep or delete? - ALLST✰R &#09660; echo wuz here @ 03:08, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "Blaming the victim? Are you seriously accusing me of that? --Damiens .rf 12:47, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment i for one am also dismayed by the pattern of behavior by some, to flag and AfD rather than improve. it meets the 'persistent coverage' exception to the one event: how about "trivializing the victim".  i really am NPOV about LGBT, but i find the offhand dismissals galling and risible. pohick (talk) 16:40, 19 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep Notable per sources, properly sourced. - ALLST✰R &#09660; echo wuz here @ 03:08, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete per Nosleep. The sources establish what the person did, but not whether he is notable. -- King of &hearts;   &diams;   &clubs;  &spades; 05:37, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete, one-event. Coatrack to bring more attention to violence against LGBT people. Stifle (talk) 12:51, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.