Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Günter Lenz


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Geschichte (talk) 03:28, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Günter Lenz

 * – ( View AfD View log )

Not enough sources to write an article of substance. Questionable notability. Vmavanti (talk) 19:15, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 19:53, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Germany-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 19:53, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Wiki articles on this musician are also available in four other language versions. Lenz led his own band Springtime with which he has published four albums of his own compositions and was a member of the German Allstars several times, with whom he toured Latin America and Japan (and recorded several records).
 * Maybe there are not enough English language sources to write a better article ("America first"??) without language experts or translation aids, but there are certainly enough good sources available. However, even the sources collected in the article confirm the current text as documented there. In view of the biography article (Grove Music Online), which is already embedded in the article and which states "One of Germany's leading double bass players", I do not think the notability of Günter Lenz is questionable at all.--Engelbaet (talk) 11:43, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
 * There are enough sources, and they are also cited in the references (Barry Kernfeld in Grove Dictionary Online, which should be accesible for long-time wikipedia-users), and there is also an entry in the Jazz Lexikon of Kunzler (published as book and CD). This should also be sufficient to prove relevance.--Claude J (talk) 11:52, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Keep I have added 2 reliable sources which clearly indicate his notability. I will continue looking for more.Less Unless (talk) 16:26, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   07:12, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment Several points need to be made, though I doubt anyone will read them or heed them. Appearing in the New Grove Dictionary of Jazz, or in Oxford Online, which bought New Grove, does not itself make a person notable. Notability is governed by the rules of Wikipedia. Being popular in Germany does not  in itself mean the person is notable. Or Important or Ought to Be in Wikepdia. That is governed by the rules of Wikipedia.

Vmavanti (talk) 14:07, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Every country has its own Wikipedia. No one has been excluded. This is the English Wikipedia for English-speaking readers, not the German Wikipedia for German readers or the International Wikipedia for multilingual readers. Respect the reader. The reader reads English, not German, so it's foolish to use sources in German. The reader can't use those sources. It's also foolish to assume a machine can do a good translation. It can't. It's comically terrible at it. As an English reader, I have no way of evaluating foreign language sources. Neither does the reader. Respect the reader. That's who Wikipedia is for. Them. Not you. Not the subject of the article. An article is not a gift to Gunter Lenz. Wikipedia is for readers. Help them. Be courteous to them. Be kind to them. Keep them in mind. Look past your own desires, preferences, and biases.—Vmavanti (talk) 17:44, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
 * No, every country does not have its own Wikipedia. Different languages do, but one language may serve several countries and one country may have several languages. And why on Earth, as a native English speaker, should I not be able to read in my own language about a notable German? Phil Bridger (talk) 17:45, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
 * This is being literal to an absurd extreme. Here is what you need to know: List of Wikipedias
 * And what does that tell me? That there are Wikipedias in many languages, for example Cornish. Should that only contain articles about topics that have been written about in multiple independent reliable sources in Cornish? Of course not. Apply the same logic to the English Wikipedia. And please answer the question in the last sentence of my previous post from the point of view of a reader. Phil Bridger (talk) 15:27, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Vmavanti (talk) 00:18, 18 October 2020 (UTC) Vmavanti (talk) 01:28, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep per the rules of the English Wikipedia, which say that significant coverage in independent reliable sources does make a topic notable. And out of respect for the reader who may not understand the German sources, although many of us do without the straw man of machine translation, but would still like to read about a notable subject. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:03, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
 * It's not a straw man, it's the truth. And if you want to read about German musicians in German, then you can read the German Wikipedia in German.
 * Not a straw man? So who has relied on machine translation to defend this article? The fact that you appear to be monolingual doesn't mean that the majority of people in the world are not. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:45, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
 * You don't know me. You have no idea whether I'm monolingual or not or what my reading preferences are. I'm not talking about myself. Are you? Can you see past your own biases? How many readers of English Wikipedia, and in particular its jazz articles, are multilingual? You appear confident enough to know, to make a judgment. So let's see the proof. You know that "majority of people in the world are not" monolingual? I don't know that. But I'm not talking about The Entire World. I'm talking about readers of jazz articles in the English Wikipedia. I will stick my neck out and say most of them cannot read German. If they encounter German sources, what then? They can use Google Translate, which does a terrible job. It's not a straw man. Machine translations are the only option when encountering a source in a foreign language.


 * Keep Sources proffered since start of discussion plenty enough to indicate that the subject meets WP:MUSIC. Chubbles (talk) 17:26, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep: Leaving aside the nominator's assertions that "Every country has its own Wikipedia." and about non-English references, what we have here is an article about a subject who, even just considering his 1960s activity, performed on a notable album (Astigmatic (album)) and was part of a noted ensemble led by Albert Mangelsdorff; these would in themselves contribute towards WP:MUSICBIO criterion 6. Subsequently, he performed with a broad range of other musicians and ensembles, as well as recording several albums with his own band. All of this is verifiable (in English) from the New Grove article about the subject, and brief mentions of the subject can also be seen in snippet views of other music encyclopaedias, in addition to which there are the sources (online and offline) in German and Italian which are detailed in the article; overall, enough to meet WP:MUSICBIO. AllyD (talk) 17:26, 22 October 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.