Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gabriel Mann (singer)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete.  MBisanz  talk 02:37, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Gabriel Mann (singer)

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Not notable. There is an actor with the same name (and has article here) and searching for sources, you have to weed those out. I couldn't find anything I felt established notability for this SINGER (title says singer, description says best known for writing, I dunno...). Was a prod, was deleted, was recreated by SPA. Note talk page on article. P HARMBOY ( TALK ) 01:14, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment. The subject is shown on the USA Songwriting Competition web site as the overall winner for 2003 (I added a ref) but I don't see evidence (nor especially evidence to the contrarty, in fairness) that it's actually an award of any significance. Can anyone opine on that? Bongomatic (talk) 05:19, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions.   --  TwentiethApril1986   (want to talk?)  01:35, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Living people-related deletion discussions. --Erwin85Bot (talk) 00:02, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete Not a major competition at all. No sources found besides those already present. Ten Pound Hammer  and his otters • (Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP) 00:29, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment I'm going to abstain from !voting BUT apparently Mann opened for Alanis Morissette on a UK tour in 2005. If you follow this Google News search you can read "Gabriel Mann [...] as he supports Alanis Morissette on her UK...". The registration-only link is to an article from the Belfast Telegraph. BUT that's not non-trivial coverage, though some consider a verifiable national tour is enough to pass WP:MUSIC. I dunno. I'm ambivalent about the whole thing—it's definitely a puff piece with tons of unsourced content. I guess I'm leaning towards delete but I'm going to sit this one out. — Hello, Control  Hello, Tony  01:26, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Interesting. However, it's impossible to believe (notwithstanding the article snippets you found) that Mann opened for Alanis Morissette for a couple of reasons. First, it wouldn't generate so few hits if it were really true. Second, the article's subject doesn't mention this on his web site--it's hard to imagine that would be the case given the amount of other achievements cited. Bongomatic (talk) 01:45, 17 October 2008 (UTC) Retracted. Bongomatic (talk) 01:38, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
 * See my response below — Hello, Control Hello, Tony  15:23, 17 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment The first hit talks about Gabriel Mann (actor) not Gabriel Mann (singer). The other one offers the single sentence We'll all be able to hear his voice soon, as he supports Alanis Morissette on her UK shows next month which is forward looking.  Doesn't confirm that it really happened, and from the looks of what bongomatic has found, appears it didn't or the author of the article was simply wrong.  P HARMBOY  ( TALK ) 11:23, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
 * You'll find many more hits in a regular Google search. Here's the Oslo venue from the tour, listing him as support. Here's someone's blog about a Morissette show in Rotterdam that includes pictures of Mann as the opening act; and a different one (no pictures, but a mention) (neither is WP:RS but still...). Mann also posted a video of himself from that tour on YouTube. And the tour is mentioned on his own website (more than once). Oh, and here's the actual article I linked to previously, it was in The Independent. Here's a profile listing his video game credits (dunno if it's WP:RS or not). I'm going to do a little more digging and if I turn up a much more, I think I'm going to have to !vote after all. — Hello, Control Hello, Tony  15:23, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The venue cite may support he opened for her one time (says he was "support"), but the rest of the blogs fail wp:rs, so can't be verified, thus don't apply here. To add to this, neither the article NOR the artists website indicates that he DID. What you have is a VERY weak singular source that is verifying something that the artist has never claimed to be a fact, even on his own website.  To say this is problematic is an understatement.  The ONE decent article only make a mention in passing, and at best only verifies that he exists, which isn't the issue.  P HARMBOY  ( TALK ) 15:33, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
 * "Support" is another term for "opening act", in case you're unfamiliar with the term. And maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but are you saying that the artist's website doesn't verify that the tour happened? I know it's a primary source, but it pretty clearly states the tour took place—but like I said, maybe I'm misunderstanding your meaning. — Hello, Control Hello, Tony  15:50, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
 * List of German dates from the tour on the concert promoter's website (click on "Bereits gespielte Termine ausblenden" under the header "TERMINE" (right below the photo of Morissette) to expand the list of tour dates; Mann is listed as "Special Guest" for all five dates. — Hello, Control Hello, Tony  18:37, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Review of German show on a WDR radio station's website (in German—Google translated). Only a brief mention of Mann but enough to verify that he actually performed in addition to being booked for the tour. — Hello, Control Hello, Tony  18:44, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
 * In a Nutshell In the translated article, the entire mention of him is "After the act Gabriel Mann from Los Angeles". It doesn't even say he is a singer.  Because of the links you added in foreign languages (good hard find), we know he opened for Alanis Morissette for 5 shows in April of 05.  It comes down to this: We can verify that he opened up for Alanis Morissette a few times in Germany.  Maybe more but we can't find sources that verify this, and god knows, we have all tried.  Based on these few gigs, does this make him notable enough and pass policy here? I am glad you have found the sources you have, as it demostrates that in this AFD we have all tried everything to help the article, but in my mind it doesn't change my opinion of notability, they only prove he exists.  Again, even HE doesn't claim that opening for her is notable enough to mention on his own website, nor does the article.  P HARMBOY  ( TALK ) 19:14, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Let's see:
 * He says (despite your repeated claims to the contrary) on his website that he opened for Alanis Morissette on a European tour.
 * There is proof from reliable sources that he opened all five shows in Germany and the show in Norway.
 * There is evidence from (admittedly) unreliable sources that he opened the London and Rotterdam shows on that same tour
 * If only the primary source existed I would agree to the dubious nature of the claim. Since the primary source is at least partially verified by reliable sources and there's nothing to be found that contradicts the primary source, it's acceptable to take it at face value. (I'm not necessarily saying, however, that everything on his website should be taken as gospel.) I would say that the European tour with Alanis Morissette, his producing Sara Bareilles' first album, along with his other work (videogame soundtracks, song(s) on Arrested Development, etc) added together equal notability. Put me down for Keep. — Hello, Control Hello, Tony  20:32, 17 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment. Opening for Alanis Morisette seems to be the only potentially notable thing about the subject of the article. I personally find it surprising that after opening (even if only a few times) for an act as significant as Alanis Morissette, he would have generated no material coverage or reviews. Don't know what conclusion to draw from that, but after extensive searching, no evidence has been turned up that suggests conventional "significant coverage" (or even "material coverage"). After reading WP:MUSIC under both its criteria for musicians and ensembles and its criteria for composers and lyricists, it is hard to see any criteria where he would fit in, with two possible exceptions. The first possibility is if he's released two of his albums on major labels or on "one of the more important independent labels". I haven't looked into this. The second possibility is that he satisfies the composers' criterion relation to competitions. However, that requires it to be a "major" competition "not established expressly for newcomers". It's not obvious that either prong of that test is met. Bongomatic (talk) 01:38, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz Humbug! 05:56, 21 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep. I'll grant that the article needs cleaning up, but I see nothing here that justifies deletion. Fumoses (talk) 13:37, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete - the extended effort to confirm his touring just proves he does not meet the notability outlined in WP:MUSIC. Criteria #4 is not just that he has gone on a tour, but that the tour is covered in reliable sources.  That is to say, the fact that the musician has toured has been noted.  It hasn't been noted.  Alanis Morrisette has been noted, and Gabriel Mann barely even gets a mention. -- Whpq (talk) 16:38, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete. His opening for Morissette provided more than ample opportunity for "significant coverage", coverage which despite several people searching for does not appear to exist. Hence the subject does not appear to have satisfied the general notability guideline. As discussed above, the subject also has not been demonstrated (again, after considerable effort) to meet the profession-specific guideline. Bongomatic (talk) 06:03, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep. As stated before, this article does need cleaning up and a through sprinkling of citations, but those familiar with Gabriel Mann's accomplishments as Hello Control has pointed out a few, would most definitly not be argueing about a percieved lack of notability. Voxbaryton (talk) 11:44, 26 October 2008 (UTC) — Voxbaryton (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Comment - but where are these citations to come from? We've looked and all that exists is confirmation that he exists.  There's no articles being written about him. -- Whpq (talk) 12:02, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment - Not that I am an expert on all things Wikipedia, but a lot of this article can be supported by an interview that Mann gave on "... is good." (http://www.radio4all.net/index.php/program/19527) as just one source. While I understand that this is a primary source, I do believe that it has merit. A few more can probably be done with some legwork beyond just googling. It would be interesting if someone could actually get a hold of the liner notes to Sara Bareilles' first album for instance. He produced half of it and should be credited, and considering her huge popularity now that alone entitles him to be considered "notable." Voxbaryton (talk) 12:41, 26 October 2008 (UTC) — Voxbaryton (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.