Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gardmanatsi


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Although there are a few calls for merging, the fact is that there is no verifiable content to merge. And to address Razorflame's concerns, all editors (anonymous and registered) are welcome to comment in XfDs, although comments not based in policy are likely to be discounted at the discretion of the closing admin. -- jonny - m t  00:08, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Gardmanatsi

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This article created by anonymous user cites no sources whatsoever, let alone reliable third party ones. I asked for sources to be provided 1 week ago, but nothing happened. This article seems to be a fork for the one about Mihranid dynasty of Caucasian Albania. Grandmaster (talk) 11:26, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Unsure about this one. I have read both this article and Mihranid and still could not quite understand what is going on here. Are you saying that Gardmanatsis were a part of the Mihranid dynasty?  GoogleBooks gives 3 hits for Gardmanatsi, see. All three are in French. Maybe some French-proficient editor could look them up and see what they are about? The Gardmanatsi article itself has been on WP since 2004 and still has no sources or references. This makes me want to delete it, as it also does not seem to meet WP:N on its own. On the other hand, if there is some verifiable info here and if there is a direct relationship between Gardmanatsis and the Mihranid dynasty, maybe this article should merged and redirected to Mihranid. Nsk92 (talk) 12:07, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, in view of the comments below, Merge and Redirect to Mihranid and retain the verifiable content, if possible. Nsk92 (talk) 15:16, 14 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Gardmanatsi means Gardmanian, i.e. hailing from Gardman. The history of the rulers of the region is well documented, they were the descendants of Mihran, a relative of Sasanian dynasty of Persia. This "Gardmanatsi" dynasty ruled the region during the same period as Mihranids did, so it is beyond any reasonable doubt a reference to the same Mihranid dynasty. I believe this article should either be deleted or redirected to Mihranids. And the French sources are way too old to be considered reliable, there was a lot of progress made in the research of the history of the region since the time they were published. Grandmaster (talk) 12:27, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * In that case, merge and redirect would seem to be the thing to do here. That "Gardmanatsi" is a description of place of ancestry seems plausible.  It seems uncertain whether the monarchs mentioned in this article are covered in the other, and loss of data should be avoided if possible.  - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 14:37, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Armenia-related deletion discussions.   -- Fabrictramp (talk) 22:08, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep First of all the request by Grandmaster seems to be in bad faith given the accusation of the article being a fork of Mihranids. How is that possible if the Gardmanatsi article was created on 18:03, 29 October 2004 and the Mihranids article was created on 12:01, 25 May 2007. As four a source, here's a refernce from a renowned specialist of the region and topic area Marie-Félicité Brosset: "Il n est peut être pas hors de propos de remarquer que le même Moïse de Khoren parle d un certain Piroz Gardmanatsi dont les biens furent confisqués au commencement du règne de Khosrov III roi d Arménie 388 392 à cause de son attachement au roi Arsace III allié des empereurs grecs Comme d après les Géorgiens le Gardahan ou ancien apanage de Gardabanos renfermait les états donnés à Phéroz gendre du roi Mirian v Géogr de la Gé p 145 179 il pourrait se faire que de cette circonstance les descendants de Piroz eussent pris le nom de Gardntaniens Mos Khor 1 III c 43" from Histoire de la Géorgie depuis l'antiquité jusqu'au XIX [i.e. dix-neuvième siècle By Brosset (Marie-Félicité)--   Ευπάτωρ   Talk!! 15:59, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Please mind WP:AGF. My request is not bad faith. It just a reference to the fact that Gardmanatsi dynasty is claimed to rule the region of Gardman during the same time as Mihranids, so there could not be 2 different dynasties ruling the same region during the same time period. Are you trying to say that this is a dynasty different from Mihranids? If so, how come that they ruled the same region during the same time? Gardmanatsi is not a name or title, it simply means Gardmanian, i.e. hailing from the region of Gardman. Also, the 19th century author Brosset is too old to be considered reliable in the 21st century, the research on the history of Caucasian Albania significantly advanced since then. Grandmaster (talk) 17:10, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Agree with Grandmaster regarding WP:AGF. Regarding the timing of the creation, accidental duplicate articles can still be forks and should be avoided unless there is a specific good reason to keep them. Grandmaster's other point about impossibility of two dynasties ruling at the same time is also well taken (if there is more to the story here, I'd like to hear about it). Regarding the Brosset book, that is good, but for the time being it is just one source with a rather brief mention of the subject. Not enough to pass WP:N unless more sources dealing with the subject in greater depth are found. Nsk92 (talk) 17:54, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Also, I run the quoted text from Brosset through the automatic Google translator and got this: "It is perhaps not out of place to note that the same Moses of Khoren speaks of a certain Piroz Gardmanatsi whose properties were confiscated at the beginning of the reign of King Khosrov III of Armenia 388 392 because of its commitment to King III ally Arsace As Greek emperors of Georgians after the Gardahan or former preserve of Gardabanos contained statements given to Phéroz son-in-law of King Mirian v Géogr the Gé p 145 179 it could be done in that circumstance descendants of Piroz had taken the name of Gardntaniens Mos Khor 1 c III 43". Unless the translation is quite wrong, it does not seem to actually say or imply that Gardmanatsi's ruled the region of Gardman. Nsk92 (talk) 18:15, 16 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete as a lack of reliable sources.--Dacy69 (talk) 16:24, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete. Seems like nothing but a bunch of names with no sources documenting the existence/significance of their bearers. 99.226.143.206 (talk) 08:53, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Are IP addresses allowed to vote in AfD's? Razorflame 15:49, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete This does not have any sources, and it seems to be a fork off of an original article. Razorfl</b><b style="color:#6c6">am</b><b style="color:#6c3">e</b> 15:50, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete as failing WP:V. Not a source in sight so it cannot be kept or merged. No prejudice to recreation if the content is sourced. TerriersFan (talk) 00:02, 24 May 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.