Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gefängnis Zürich


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. Apparently this page has changed substantially since it was nominated for deletion, and accordingly, votes towards the end of the discussion hold more weight in borderline cases such as this. Among the most recent comments there seems to be an overall agreement that this prison is notable. Therefore, it seems consensus supports keeping the page. – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 02:53, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Gefängnis Zürich

 * – (View AfD) (View log)

Prod removed by editor as 'rubbish.' I beg to differ and ask for others' opinion. My rationale for prodding this for deletion:

Stub about a non-notable building. I can find no sources that discuss the actual building, its function, its history, its architecture; its only claim to fame seems to be that Polanski is in it. That is not enough, and buildings such as these do not have inherent notability, as far as I know.

I stand by this argument, and would like the community's opinion. Drmies (talk) 19:01, 28 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Obvious keep. It's the main prison in Zürich, and is just as notable as any of the (extremely) many Category:Prisons in the United States. Your statements are simply hilarious. Urban XII (talk) 19:05, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Mind your manners, please. Drmies (talk) 19:07, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * No, this is a disruptive nomination and abuse of the AFD process. Any prison is by definition notable, there are hundreds of articles about American prisons. Urban XII (talk) 19:15, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * No, prisons are not by definition notable (there's no such provision in WP:N). If there are articles about non-notable US prisons, these should be nominated for AfD instead; see WP:WAX.  Sandstein   19:17, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * (e/c with Sandstein) So, no, you won't mind your manners? "Rubbish" and "hilarious"--that's disruptive of civility. AfD is a normal part of Wikipedia. If notability can be established, or if there is a consensus that prisons have some kind of inherent notability, then I will either withdraw this AfD or it will close as a keep. What is the problem? If you want articles NOT to be prodded or nominated for deletion in the first place, provide reliable sources that establish the subject's importance. Drmies (talk) 19:21, 28 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete as the article as it stands is "rubbish". If general notability can and will be established within the timeline this AFD will run I will not hesitate to change my "vote" to "keep".The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 19:13, 28 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Neutral for now. A large European city's principal jail, in operation since 1916, is almost certain to have sufficient coverage in reliable sources (such as a century's worth of the local pages of the Swiss newspaper of reference, the Neue Zürcher Zeitung) to meet WP:N. But these sources, if they exist, seem to be offline. If they are not found by the end of the AfD, the content should probably be merged into a suitable article with a larger scope, such as a list of Swiss prisons.   Sandstein   19:15, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Hello Sandstein, I was thinking the same thing--but I have not yet found any such discussion, just mentions. Good luck to you; you probably have access to better material than I do. Drmies (talk) 19:17, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I've now started List of prisons in Switzerland, so we've got a merge target if no sources turn up.  Sandstein   21:40, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep - I would think that the largest prison in the Canton of Zürich would be notable, just as the largest prison in, say, Illinois would be.  Just browsing Category:Prisons in Illinois, it seems we don't seem to have a problem with less important prisons there.  Is this a case of systemic bias? --Oakshade (talk) 19:36, 28 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Bias? Let's be honest. The only reason this page was created is because Polanski is held there for now. That's why I said above that I would withdraw my "vote" if general notability is established (which wouldn't be a really hard task). Polanski could and should be only a side note in this article but right now it's the main "attraction".The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 20:00, 28 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I personally don't hate Swiss prisons. Drmies (talk) 19:38, 28 September 2009 (UTC)


 * What is your advise? Should I book a sweet there fore my next vacation? :)) . Just trying to bring some humor into this.The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 20:04, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You should be locked up for your spelling alone! It's "suite". :) Crafty (talk) 20:30, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Please lock me up. I could talk myself out of it but I won't :))The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 20:54, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Enough of that you saucy wench! This AfD is serious business! :P Crafty (talk) 21:04, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Y'all just be glad I didn't book you in the Illinois state pen. Drmies (talk) 21:28, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I fail to see why this article should need any further sources than the website of the Zürich Bureau of Prisons. All the information currently in the article is from the official website of Zürich correctional authorities. The Federal Correctional Institution, Pekin does also only have official sources. I've seen many similar articles on American prisons. Urban XII (talk) 19:49, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete a stub article about a building the notability of which is not supported by relevant reliable sources. Crafty (talk) 19:55, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment Needs more than a temporary resident to establish notability. It's not even notable for size so far as I can see. Peridon (talk) 20:18, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete Nothing in the article that says this prison is notable. I could not find any reliable sources that provide significant coverage.  GB fan  talk 22:11, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Weak delete - Merge to List of prisons in Switzerland - All it needs is a bit more detail and some citations, and I'll change to Keep. As a major prison which is almost 90 years old I'd be very surprised if it couldn't find some notability (for historic, architectural, or heritage reasons) but they're not currently in the article.  I'll stick this on my watchlist and if someone more enthusiastic doesn't beat me to it I'll have a go myself later in the week. - DustFormsWords (talk) 06:55, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * All right, I've had a go at improving it and I can't find the sources. I still feel they must exist - prisons simply don't go 90 years without accruing notable history - but it might take a German speaker to dig them up; Google translate just isn't up to the task - it keeps translating the prison as "airport prison" which makes things difficult.  Can we hang on in the hope of finding a German to give it a go? - DustFormsWords (talk) 07:11, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Per this comment, I have left a request at the German-speaking Wikipedians' notice board alterting them to this AfD. Thryduulf (talk) 11:20, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Keep Major prison in a major city is notable enough. Sure, it could do with expansion and sources are likely to be in German or French but that is not a reason to delete the article. I've tagged the article with WP:LE, WP:Prisons and WP:CH and notified all three WPs of this discussion. Mjroots (talk) 09:53, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. Thryduulf (talk) 10:01, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Switzerland-related deletion discussions. Thryduulf (talk) 10:01, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Strong keep as "the largest prison in the Canton of Zurich" and nearly 100 years old. Certainly notable. SGGH ping! 10:24, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Clear keep I'm one of the German speakers (and Zurich locals) that have had a look due to this call. Yes, the percentage of incarcerated US citizenry (and resulting number of prisoners) is quite high in comparison to Swiss standards, and yes, Swiss prisons do not feature as prominently in Hollywood films as their US counterparts, but this shouldn't really count here. I'm sorry (and at the same time, quite happy) to say that prisons in Switzerland do not tend to become any bigger than this one. However, if you mess up in Zurich, that's where you will normally be headed (no first-hand experience, though); and yes, Vitalij Kalojew did make quite a name for himself in Switzerland before he checked in, so the "just because of Polanski" argument doesn't really apply. I'm not quite sure what kind of an attestation of notability in published sources you expect (an article in a newspaper attesting the prison's notability for an internet encyclopedia? -- it's certainly not the only building of public interest in Zurich on WP). I cannot see a rationale that would make it logical to cover the many prisons in America but not the ones in Switzerland. And if neither is notable enough, what with WP:WAX and whatnot, have a try at having a few US prisons deleted first and see what the reaction would be! ;-) How cramped for space are anyway we to make it necessary to draw the line here? Trigaranus (talk) 13:20, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep: The fact that news events can cause articles that should exist to come into existence is a good thing (though making them good articles is a pain). Main prison in a large city, this in of itself appears to be notable based on existence of other prison articles in the project, e.g., Massachusetts Correctional Institution - Framingham, Lansing Correctional Facility (Kansas), Darwin Correctional Centre (Australia), Chanchalguda Central Jail (Hyderabad, India), Drakenstein Correctional Centre (South Africa), Ofer Prison (Israel), Jaslyk Prison (Uzbekistan), Matrosskaya Tishina (Russia), Bastøy Prison (Norway), etc. etc. etc. --Milowent (talk) 13:44, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep. Per Milowent. mge o  talk 15:30, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep article has been improved considerably since nom and I don't think deletion is still an option. Would Drmies care to withdraw? ninety:one  16:34, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep The sources in the article looks ok/reliable to me. This prison seems to be notable enough. I'm not sure if a better title for this would be Zurich prison or something else instead of the German name of this prison. This is the English Wikipedia and not the German. Barras (talk) 19:23, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Regarding the title, I've just created a redirect from Zuirch prison to the current title based on your comment. I guess that we should use whatever title English-language reliable sources use but I've not looked to see what that is. Thryduulf (talk) 21:22, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, you created a redirect from Zurch prison :-p Mjroots (talk) 08:49, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Now fixed! Redirect is now at Zurich prison rather than "Zurch prison" or "Zuirch prison" *whistles innocently*.Thryduulf (talk) 09:38, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep major prisons are notable. This is actually a jail, not a prison--it holds primarily people awaiting trial -- and I'm not sure notability should automatically extend that far.  But it seems to be the main jail for the city, & there are undoubtedly additional sources to be found about it's construction, extension, and the like.  DGG ( talk ) 17:48, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.