Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Geist: The Sin-Eaters


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep with cleanup required. While issues have been raised and acknowledged here, consensus is that cleaning up these articles is the way to go. (non-admin closure) Steven Zhang  The clock is ticking....  06:27, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Geist: The Sin-Eaters

 * – ( View AfD View log )

Massive, crufty plot-only summary of the game that smells of copyvio/close paraphrasing, and has absolutely no commentary on the game in real life, and zero references. This might well be notable enough for an article as part of a series on the World of Darkness universe, but if so it needs to be blown up and started over. The Bushranger One ping only 01:08, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: added Hunter: The Vigil, Mage: The Awakening and Werewolf: The Forsaken, other games in the series with many of the same problems and also needing a dose of WP:TNT. - The Bushranger One ping only 01:32, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Games-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 13:00, 24 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep All these are published offerings by a notable company that has been influential in the role-playing game world of the last 15+ years. I find it not very credible that sources to establish independent notability don't exist, but very plausible that the articles could use attention to bring them up to our current expectations.  Furthermore, it should be entirely possible to merge such games by a notable publisher into either the publisher's article, or (more appropriately, perhaps) the World of Darkness article itself.  I don't buy the "blow it up and start it over again" argument--while the articles may be substandard, they're far from unhelpful. Jclemens (talk) 00:30, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * They're plot-only game guides, that make little to no reference to real-world reception or reactions to the games. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:58, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Like I said, not up to standards, but not unhelpful to readers looking for the topic. Don't confuse the two; they're not at all the same. Jclemens (talk) 05:17, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * True, but there's no way to bring them up to standards without removing ~90+% of the current content anyway; and WP:ITSUSEFUL isn't a reason to keep articles that are in a state that's an embarassment to Wikipedia. - The Bushranger One ping only 07:53, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm having a hard time imagining that werewolf and mage lack reliable reviews. I personally dislike these games, but they are very (very) well known in the RPG industry. I'll ask around. Hobit (talk) 01:10, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Probably should redirect them to World of Darkness for now. There's a bit of notability, but it isn't going to be easy to write sourced articles on them. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 03:35, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep: Significant games that are well reviewed, just need to find and reference them. Yes, the articles need cleanup, but this isn't a WP:COPYVIO, patent nonsense, advertising, or anything similar, so I disagree that WP:TNT applies. What does apply is that deletion is not cleanup. - Sangrolu (talk) 12:11, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep All as per Jcelemens. Edward321 (talk) 23:51, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.