Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Genocide of Christians in North Korea (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. –&#8239;Joe (talk) 07:03, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Persecution of christians in North Korea
AfDs for this article:


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This article is a POVFORK of Human rights in North Korea. It may be possible to write a stand-alone article on Persecution of Christians in North Korea, but this is not that article. There are serious failed verification and POV issues with this article. For example, the article claims that Yad Vashem states that there is a genocide of Christians in North Korea, but it is not supported by the cited source (which is not a RS anyway). There is no evidence that the majority of reliable sources consider the persecution of Christians in North Korea to be a genocide, and Google Scholar results indicates that the reverse is the case.

Quote from the source (which is an opinion piece, not a reliable source on this topic): Yad Vashem, the Holocaust Martyrs’ and Heroes’ Remembrance Authority in Jerusalem, called on the international community in 2004 to investigate “political genocide” in North Korea. In response to reports of “North Korea’s use of gas chambers to murder and perform medical experiments on political dissidents and their families” and the “chilling image of the murderers coolly watching their victims’ death agonies. . . all too reminiscent of Nazi barbarism,” the group’s chairman, Avner Shalev, wrote to then-U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan that “the issue is all the more severe due to North Korea’s status as a member of the U.N.” (t &#183; c)  buidhe  21:53, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Korea-related deletion discussions. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  21:53, 1 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Comment This was before I had moved to article to a less over-the-top title and attempted to clean-up some of the mess made by its original creator... (in other words,, I'm surprised this didn't trigger an edit conflict or something) Agree that this is a terrible article as it stands, but WP:DINC RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 21:58, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
 * , I don't see this as a DINC case since in my opinion, none of the original article content was useful for Wikipedia. I would also be happy with a redirect to another article, however the original article creator did not seem to be getting the point so I thought that obtaining a clear consensus would be a good idea. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  22:02, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
 * As I said, I agree that the article was terrible, and there's not enough of it left to justify a full article separate from the relevant sub-section. If there's nobody willing to improve the article on a tight deadline; then the obvious alternative is to take the now plausible title an simply make it an r with possibilities back to the section mentioned by . Hence redirect to Human rights in North Korea (and delete the other one, which I've nominated at RfD). As I said, we must have edit conflicted, cause this is at the wrong title now. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 22:05, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Oh wait, the correctly capitalised version actually exists and wasn't just a piped link. In this case this is simple; speedy redirect as r from miscapitalisation and avoid all of this bureaucracy is the way to go, now. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 22:09, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I've struck the bolded !votes, given the article has been dramatically altered, so they don't apply anymore; although I still have reservations given the useful content is basically just a split from an existing article, but nothing that warrants any further action at this time. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 01:06, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep This article has already been nominated for deletion in the past and it was not deleted. I see no reason to repeat this painful process over again. You also say that I have only one source. i actually included many sources, but it appears that someone deleted all but one of them. This is a case of Over-hasty_Speedy_Deleters and WP:DINC Dunutubble (talk) 22:18, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Because they are not reliable sources. You seem fairly new here, go read WP:RS. Self-published posts on medium and forbes; as well as opinion pieces; are not acceptable for statements of facts. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 22:19, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment OK it's true that I shouldn't have chosen Forbes, but most of the Citations I had were not Forbes articles. Thank you for giving me that link though.Dunutubble (talk) 22:24, 1 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep for now, but with a deadline for improvements: I understand the topic to be of enough importance to have its own article. I also know there are plenty of reliable sources to support it. However, the article is in very poor shape; it should first have been drafted better before initial publication. I think should be given a chance to make those improvements, if s/he is motivated to work on it. If you need guidance on how to make a good article, feel free to ask editors, including myself. Also, let me invite  to this deliberation since he is also highly involved in Nk in wikipedia.
 * Also the original title of "Genocide of Christians in North Korea" was in my view not accurate nor neutral, and there is a discussion now about deleting the page now even as a redirect. It is laudable that you sympathize with the plight of Christians in NK, and you can within Wikipedia help to shed light on the topic. You just have to do so neutrally, without exaggerations. It is better to describe human rights abuses accurately than overstate them and then lose credibility on the whole issue. Welcome to Wikipedia; it is normal to make these mistakes at the beginning and I went through it as well. I understand it can be frustrating when your work is being considered for deletion etc. I hope you can be part of the community and we can support you with guidance on how to make contributions aligned with the wiki policies. Respectfully, Al83tito (talk) 03:22, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 19:11, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Discrimination-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 19:11, 2 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete Not notable enough to justify a Wikipedia article and there is not significant coverage.RamotHacker (talk) 21:37, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Redirect. While I believe the topic is notable enough to justify a standalone wikipedia article, this isn't it - any such article should begin by splitting off the relevant section of Human rights in North Korea. Until that happens, this article serves better as a redirect. BilledMammal (talk) 06:43, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep, per WP:HEY. With other commenters adding additional sources, I've taken it upon myself to merge relevant content from Human rights in North Korea in. As such, my arguments for redirect no longer stand. In retrospect, perhaps I should have done this at the start. In any case, I will note for the closer that if this is to be kept, it needs to be moved to Persecution of Christians in North Korea, replacing the current redirect BilledMammal (talk) 23:11, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
 * (with great regret) Redirect -- This is a highly notable subject and ought to have a proper article of its own, but the present stub is so poor as to need TNT. The view of Yad Vashem, a Jewish organisation is not relevant: they are only expressing their POV on the subject.    This is inevitably a difficult article to write, as Christianity is practised in North Korea clandestinely.  Organisations like Open Doors, Christian Solidarity International, and a few more may have some idea of the number of Christians, but they do not publish this kind of data, as it is likely to bring down wrath on Christians' heads.  Peterkingiron (talk) 17:30, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep I have added sources from The Guardian ,CNN ,Forbes ,The Washington Post ,BBC ,Fox News which clearly state that Christians are Persecuted in North Korea. The topic passes WP:GNG.But it needs cleanup and rewrite but I think that it is necessary to keep this article  Persecution of Christians in North Korea.  Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 18:15, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep clearly notable. Super   Ψ   Dro  18:50, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep as the aforementioned new reliable sources references added to the article since nomination such as The Guardian, BBC, CNN and others shows that the subject passes WP:GNG and now it can be expanded using those references, in my view Atlantic306 (talk) 23:09, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep per WP:HEY. Clearly meets GNG based on sources added.4meter4 (talk) 16:32, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep, clearly a notable topic based on newly added sources.Jackattack1597 (talk) 23:39, 8 September 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.