Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/George Richards (Southern League footballer)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. FPL discussions have not led to a formally published consensus at WP:FPL, and whilst GNG concerns raised have not been cleared up, I'm not seeing a clear consensus one way or the other and with no further comments since the last relisting, I'm not seein appetite to continue the discussion at this point. Perhaps a relist once the FPL point has been formally resolved. Fenix down (talk) 10:42, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

George Richards (Southern League footballer)

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Fails WP:NFOOTBALL, as he did not play in a professional league. Lettlerhello 21:56, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Lettlerhello 21:56, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. Lettlerhello 21:56, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions. Lettlerhello 21:56, 6 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep: The top division of the Southern League was professional until 1920, when it merged into the Football League and became its third division. &mdash;  Gas Head Steve [TALK] 09:07, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Do you have a source for this? Number   5  7  10:56, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I should have provided a source with my original statement, but I was in a bit of a rush at the time. There's the quote below...
 * "In registering themselves as a limited company and acquiring a permanent home, Rovers were pressing their claim for a place in the newly flourishing professional Southern League, which had been formed in 1894."


 * The Southern League website also states that it was set up as a rival to the Football League, which was based in the north of England and midlands, though unfortunately that page doesn't state explicitly that the first division was professional. &mdash;  Gas Head Steve [TALK] 12:22, 7 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. &mdash;  Gas Head Steve [TALK] 09:12, 7 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete The way the football notability guidelines are being applied has absurd results. We need to scrap the overly sealous attention on "fully professional" status, and start paying more attention to the level of sourcing, which in this case does not justify a free standing article.John Pack Lambert (talk) 13:10, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * WRT your first sentence, WP:ATH lists "having played in a fully pro league" as a notability benchmark for a number of sports, not just football. Is there any evidence that football is "worse" than other sports for having articles on "one game wonders"?  Rudy Ahlin, for example, has an article despite only ever playing a single game of professional ice hockey and I am sure there are many more in the same situation.  I realise this is a bit WP:OSE, but it seems unfair to characterise this apparent "absurdity" as something specific to football.... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:45, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I personally think JPL should be topic banned from these AfDs, every time he adds comments it's the same thing. I don't think he is interested in analysing the subject matter. Govvy (talk) 13:05, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
 * This is par for the course reaction of the extremist who want to turn Wikipedia into a sports encyclopedia only. They attack anyone who questions the unending devotion to sports. Also the claim about fully pro is not true, in most other sports there is discernment used, and we do not accept every pro league every where as leading to a default sign of notability.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:26, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I strongly disagree with the suggestion made above by Govvy. It's irrelevant to the discussion, it's in the wrong place, and as far as its substance is concerned the suggestion is made arbitrarily and without substantiation. Please take it up to WP:AN if you feel so strongly about it. -The Gnome (talk) 09:08, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
 * He wants to delete an article because he doesn't like a policy, that's not evaluating the article. At the same time, my comments are relevant to denote attitude which the closer should take into account. It all adds up, and yes AN is an option I've seen no one do. Govvy (talk) 16:19, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Τhe board at WP:AN is busy at all hours. -The Gnome (talk) 21:36, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep on basis that SFL was fully-pro per source above. If agreed here, needs adding to WP:FPL. GiantSnowman 14:18, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment I wonder if the article can be improved or not, Phil Sour's Tottenham Hotspur The Official Illustrated History 1882–1995 also in an off-hand way said that Tottenham turned professional when entering in the Southern League. However that doesn't quite indicate that the Southern League was fully-professional or not. I've see other sources refer to the Southern League being professional during the period up to the 1920s. However there would need to be further investigation. Govvy (talk) 13:53, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I was under the impression that SFL players did not meet the notability requirements? I've avoided creating articles on players who only played in the SFL for some time due to this. This discussion from 2008 seems to largely dismiss the idea of the SFL being fully professional. Kosack (talk) 07:53, 9 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment: I've been looking for sources to confirm (or disprove) the professionalism of the Southern League, but haven't managed so far to find anything 100% conclusive either way. I've summarised a few quotes and peices of evidence that I've found while browsing on the British Newspaper Archive below:
 * The Edinburgh Evening News on 6 June 1895 stated "Almost all the clubs in the Southern Football League are now professional", so we can infer from that it was not fully professional in 1895, but the player in question on this AfD played from 1911 to 1913.
 * The Yorkshire Post & Leeds Intelligencer (19 July 1915) reported on the Southern League deciding to revert to amateur status during World War I, stating "The feasability of running teams on amateur lines, and of getting men who hitherto have earned their living by the game, to play for nothing is strongly questioned by some clubs". This would imply professionalism at this point.
 * The Central Somerset Gazette (9 July 1915) also reported on the suspension of professional football during the first world war, agreed upon during a conference of the English, Scottish, Irish and Southern leagues, possibly implying a degree of parity between the Southern league and Football League.
 * The Birmingham Daily Gazette (8 March 1910) reported on a joint conference of the Football League and Southern League to agree upon the rules governing the payment of players (maximum wage of £5 per week) and what cut of any transfer fee should be paid to players. Again, the joint nature of this conference and the joint statement released at the end of it implies (to me at least) professionalism of the Southern League on a par with that of the Football League.
 * In the list of the week's football results in the Chelmsford Chronicle (8 January 1909) the Southern League results are listed in the "professional leagues" section of the page.
 * As I said above, none of this is 100% conclusive proof of full professionalism but combined I feel it is indicative of it. &mdash;  Gas Head Steve [TALK] 12:26, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Delete: Honestly, if people are disputing whether the league in which this fellow played was professional, we're much better off considering whether the subject meets the GNG -- which per NSPORTS he would have to meet in any case. I see no evidence that he does so.   Ravenswing      07:25, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Fenix down (talk) 16:10, 15 August 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.