Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gerard Cornielje


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Absolutely none of the Keep contributors (all but one of which are SPAs) give any policy-based reason for the article to be kept. Black Kite (talk) 00:46, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Gerard Cornielje

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 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions.  Cliff  Smith 18:42, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions.  Cliff  Smith 18:42, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

WP:NOTABILITY - an autobiographical article. Possible claims to notability in article are an inherited title (WP:NOTINHERITED), a poetry award which turns out to be the best poem from a specific book, restricted to members of a website he was on, a music nomination in the "Indie Music Channel" awards, the first and only year of those awards. Gnews archives gives 4 hits - one passing mention, one single-paragraph local paper mention, and two hits that are both this article, from what appears to be a localized edition of an Indian paper. Google offers an article that looks like it was generated by the hotel he was playing at for 3 years in Phuket, Thailand, but otherwise looks like a sea of self-generated hits. Nat Gertler (talk) 14:23, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete Doesn't meet criteria for WP:MUSBIO. Couldn't find any reliable secondary sources giving non-trivial coverage of the subject. No evidence of notability within the article. Lots of unsourced personal information. CodeTheorist (talk) 21:27, 15 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep Enough evidence of notability through links provided, through family history, Facebook fans: over 64,000, Twitter followers nearly 40,000 and numerous videos of performances worldwide on youtube and other sources--Vonsaxen (talk) 07:55, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Note - Above editor is apparently both the subject of the article and the sole author of it in its current form. (Sorry, I can't remember the templates to tag these things at the moment.) --Nat Gertler (talk) 14:35, 16 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep Cornielje is very well known in Holland, Morocco, Thailand, Switzerland and many other countries, he received a poetry prize too in Holland and he does a lot of charity work for orphans in India. I have seen his shows and they are great.--Poerak (talk) 16:30, 16 July 2012 (UTC) — Poerak (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.


 * Keep I have seen Gerard Cornielje's performance in Paris, he was moderating and performing for the Tour de France (Alberto Contador, Saxobank) he has other great performances in Switzerland and Holland, he is really amazing, I am on his like page and he has got almost 65.000 Likes under 'saxbomb' How can he not have enough notibilty: he has got fans all over the world and is a well respected poet and musician in the Netherlands!--Bennaomi (talk) 21:29, 16 July 2012 (UTC) — Bennaomi (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.


 * Keep To begin: I think that the message welcoming me here regarding 'canvassing' was not pleasant to read. However, I have created this account with the single purpose of supporting Gerard Cornielje in this matter. It is probably a grave mistake to be so bluntly open, but when it comes to music and art we should let ourselves go and follow our hearts and souls. That is what Cornielje is about, so that's what I would like to express: please keep this guy where he belongs: in Wikipedia, among us all. Perhaps a little guidance here or there would be appropriate, but deletion would be too severe. Agreed, I am a fan and therefore not objective, but then again: who is? Should clinical judgement always be the defining factor in making these decisions? Aren't artists of this kind valuable enough to be kept in the eye of the public? I think they are and therefore request a definite Keep!--Janssenb (talk) 21:57, 16 July 2012 (UTC) — Janssenb (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Comment None of the above keep !votes address the fact that he doesn't seem to meet the criteria for WP:MUSBIO. However if you could provide references to articles about the person in newspapers, magazines, books or other reliable sources, then that could help establish his notability. This is all I could find (article) and on its own it just isn't enough. In any case there is a lot of unsourced personal information in the article, which will need to be deleted unless sources can be found. CodeTheorist (talk) 07:14, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep Online resources seem to show notability, I believe that the amount of twitter followers and Facebook likes speak for themselves. The artist gathers his following most likely through live performances. His poetry award and nomination as best Blues Artist and his global Reverbnation position (nr. 27) on the Blues Charts also speak in favor. Reverbnation is after all one of the best known online music platforms for independent musicians.--Vladimireric (talk) 11:16, 17 July 2012 (UTC) — Vladimireric (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * We have guidelines for inclusion of musicians, seen at WP:MUSBIO, and it would be helpful if the new editors we have popping up to comment could review that set of guidelines and address the material in the terms presented there. Twitter and Facebook counts do not "speak for themselves", as they are very manipulatable, and in any case do not measure "notability" by the definition Wikipedia uses (see WP:NOTABILITY). --Nat Gertler (talk) 13:46, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Notability in case of Cornielje is not restricted to music, he is is published poet as well, the award he won is not as trivial as it sounds in your comment above: the NCRV is a very respected broadcasting company in The Netherlands, the internet platform they ran for many years has been used by thousands of poets from Holland and Belgium. A pre-selection of 120 poets was made and Cornielje's poem was chosen as the best poem out of the entire history of this project. The award handed to him is a definite indication for notability. So is his book In Exsilium.The nomination as Best Blues Male Artist for the Indie Channel Awards can not be trivialized either and meets one of the requirements for notability in the field of music. The fact that Cornielje has been chosen to be ambassador for the Toe-to-Heart Trust in Bangalore is a verification of his notability to: one does not choose just anybody for such a position. Finally does Cornielje's family history make him a figure of interest (especially in the Netherlands): there are very few noble families left in the Low Lands.--Vladimireric (talk) 14:04, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The "Indie Music Channel Awards" nomination does not meet any of the requirements in the field of mysic; those requirements call for nomination for "a major music award", which these clearly are not. A Google news search including archives for coverage turns up a grand total of seven hits - most of them press releases. --Nat Gertler (talk) 14:24, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I would like to put in my tuppence worth: I of course accept the rules and regulations of Wikipedia, but would regret very much to see my article disappear entirely. If my notability as a musician is not sufficient to classify for Wikipedia, then so be it. I would like to mention however that being a musician is only part of my life. I therefore would request a check of my family history and my career as a poet as well. Perhaps the article can then be re-labeled. If the editors feel that this article is not Wiki-worthy after this check, then I do no longer object to removal.--Vonsaxen (talk) 16:38, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Mentioned article has been accepted and researched in The Netherlands, Germany, Austria and Switzerland, all hereditary questions have been verified, artistic values have been recognized, so let's get this thing on the road and settle the issue asap: hesitation is a virtue of the weak after all :-) Keep or Delete that is the question m'lords! Let's get on with it!

KEEP or DELETE, that's the question my fiends :-) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vonsaxen (talk • contribs) 23:12, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Global Chart nr. 28 on the Global Reverbnation Charts, indication of notability--Vladimireric (talk) 12:29, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
 * That's not a country's national music chart; that's just the sales chart for a single website, among those who happen to use their web service... and as the chart goes on infinitely, every performer on ReverbNation is "on the charts". --Nat Gertler (talk) 13:43, 18 July 2012 (UTC)


 *  Keep  last attempt to share some hopefully useful links to establish notability:

http://www.waaier.com/bundels.php#12 (Anthology in wich I am featured)

http://www.waaier.com/bundels.php#10 (Anthology in wich I am featured)

http://www.bruna.nl/boeken/in-exsilium-9789085396796 (Poetry in English and Dutch)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dutch_people

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Dutch_jazz_saxophonists

http://top-topics.thefullwiki.org/Dutch_jazz_saxophonists

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProjekt_Jazz/Musikerindex

http://www.reverbnation.com/main/charts?geo=National&country=CH&state=&city=Regensdorf&postal_code=8106&genre=blues&page=1&use_postal_code=1

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergh

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/'s-Heerenberg

http://itunes.apple.com/ch/album/sax-on-the-beach-single/id488417646

http://itunes.apple.com/ch/album/blue-door-feat.-gerard-cornielje/id514777075

http://www.reverbnation.com/mobile-app/41040/saxbomb

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijst_van_Nederlandstalige_dichters

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorie:Nederlands_dichter

http://www.geni.com/projects/Dichters-in-de-familie

http://stillesuiker.wordpress.com/webnest/dichters/

http://poezie-homepages.startpagina.nl/

http://persleandertijdhofcom.blogspot.ch/2011/05/gerard-cornielje-wint-dichtersprijs.html

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategorie:Autor

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_Biografien/Cor

http://celebrityautographs.nl/ln_dutch/c/cornielje.htm

http://poezie.jouwpagina.nl/rubrieken/erkende-dichters-c-d.html

http://tjsaxes.com/gallery

http://itunes.apple.com/ch/album/god-bless-the-child-single/id488434172?l=en

http://books.google.ch/books/about/Dutch_Saxophonists_by_Genre.html?id=aRnKbwAACAAJ&redir_esc=y

http://artseesdiner.com/gerardcornielje.html

https://www.reverbnation.com/c./rpk/413317

Contact for Publishing house 'De Wilg' dewilg@waaier.com 0031-592 273 266 (Marion Spronk oder Rob Spronk) contact for publishing house Freemusketeers: info@freemusketeers.nl At 'De Wilg' 2 more books of poetry will be released next year. The incredible tales of Baron von Saxen and another title which as of yet has no title yet. This information can be verified with the respective Publishing Houses.--Vonsaxen (talk) 22:04, 18 July 2012 (UTC)  This user has voted twice.

Added recent publications and releases to the article and removed some remarks from this discussion page, since a discussion between Nat Gertler and myself has taken place on my talk page. This to keep the conversation in the realm where it belongs: the contents and 'wiki-worhtiness' of this article.--Vonsaxen (talk) 16:32, 22 July 2012 (UTC) 
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:18, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

 *KeepI feel notability has been established in the course of this discussion: a book of poems, 2 anthologies, a CD, 2 CD singles, international influence (Thailand, Morocco, India, several European countries,I found numerous links, videos and referrals to this person globaly).I believe that this article is a definate keep.--Vladimireric (talk) 06:11, 24 July 2012 (UTC) This user has voted twice.
 * Delete Violates WP:NPOV ...please note a contributor states; "Agreed, I am a fan and therefore not objective..." and also the debate statement; "Note - Above editor is apparently both the subject of the article and the sole author of it in its current form." These statements in and of themselves should provide justification to Delete.  The article could then be rewritten for relevence and a neutral stance. And for what it matters, if you type in my name on a Google search you will get hits too, and anyone could drop my name on various lists on wiki as well as if that in and of itself is definitive of noteworthiness. Let us include you, don't just up and decide it yourself; that's what the world calls "narcissistic", a particularly unsavory tag to get listed as. Ren99 (talk) 07:09, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep Notability through verifiable international appearances, recordings, publications and heriditary relevance add up to meeting the required criteria.--Ajampaniki (talk) 20:14, 26 July 2012 (UTC) — Ajampaniki (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Can you point to which specific criteria these meet? --23:20, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * WP:MUSBIO would like to refer to WP:NOTINHERITED--Ajampaniki (talk) 20:36, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Checking WP:MUSBIO, the only of the listed criteria there which the things you list would qualify for is #5, but that's dependent not just on the number of recordings but on the label for the recordings. Do you have information on Cornielje's labels that shows their import? --Nat Gertler (talk) 21:19, 27 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete Doesn't meet criteria for WP:MUSBIO. Couldn't find any reliable secondary sources giving non-trivial coverage of him as musician resp. poet. Violates WP:NPOV.-- Engelbaet (talk) 11:30, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep Relevance through international influence: India, Thailand, Morocco, Europe. etc. Perhaps criteria designed to assess are no longer in touch with present reality and should be somewhat more flexible to be able to differentiate between irrelevant and relevant--Zulauf1234 (talk) 22:51, 27 July 2012 (UTC) — Zulauf1234 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * This is not an effective place to argue for a change to policies and guidelines, I'm afraid. --Nat Gertler (talk) 00:46, 28 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete Vanispamcruftisement. Charts are not Good Charts. Overloading us with bad refs doesn't make him notable. What is he meant to be notable for? duffbeerforme (talk) 08:07, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.