Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gestapo–NKVD conferences


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was speedy keep. A mixture of a snow keep and DENY. Guerillero Parlez Moi 15:27, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Gestapo–NKVD conferences

 * – ( View AfD View log |)

I nominate this article for deletion. It's a long-surviving fringe theory article (essentially a historical myth akin to claims that Hitler escaped from Berlin or that Beria and Himmler met in 1940 etc.). It was created in 2007 by User:Tymek. It's about rumours and hearsay about events that almost certainly didn't take place. It's one of the excamples of Polish nationalist history fiction posted here on Wikipedia (cf. this hoax that staid here for 15 years). The issue has been raised several times by non-prominent users/IPs at talk (several attempts: ; ); to no avail.

When it was created in 2007, the article had no inline references but a number of obscure websites added as sources. Back then Wikipedia sourcing policies were not rigorous enough. Now they theoretically are. The only things that have changed wrt this "article", however, have been as follows:

1) a bunch of academic nobodys (almost all are Polish) have been inserted as "sources"; however, they just mention the alleged events passing by without any substantiation. A clear violation of WP:REDFLAG. For such exceptional claims that the article presents as facts here, exceptionally good sources would be warranted. This is not the case in the current article;

2) the article has been turned into a WP:COATRACK in a sneaky way so as to give legitimacy to the fringe views (supposed "common conferences of Gestapo and NKVD" held in occupied Poland) - so they've added stuff about Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, the German–Soviet military parade in Brest-Litovsk, a Nazi propaganda poster on German Heim ins Reich policy), i.e. things that did take place and are all sufficiently covered in relevant articles.

The bottom line: this article has been created to advance a theory that Gestapo and NKVD held a series of conferences (even dates are provided!) in 1940 in occupied Poland. This theory has never found ANY serious academic support. Robert Conquest once picked it up and mentioned it but he never returned to this. To my knowledge, not a single notable scholar has published an article, book what ever, on these alleged events. It is WP:FRINGE and has nothing to do in an encyclopedia. The article as it stands also constitutes an egregious violation of WP:NPOV, because it deliberately misinforms the readers by selling this fringe view as certified facts. The results are very sad, because numerous websites have indeed picked up this fake from Wikipedia and took it seriously and so this theory has been circulating in the Internet for more than a decade, ,. And for this fact we have to thank our Team Poland and the incompetence of the admins (e.g. rather than intervening to remove this stuff prominent admins showed up to shoot a messanger half a year ago, ).PjN 17:46, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

PjN 17:46, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Post scriptum - it is an ominous sign that the article was DYKed back in 2007: "A fact from Gestapo–NKVD conferences appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column on 24 July 2007. The text of the entry was as follows: Did you know... that the Gestapo and NKVD convened four conferences discussing the elimination of the Polish resistance movement?" - but this was so many years ago and the project has been constantly progressing over all these years. Yet the fact remains that some topic areas are not properly supervised by competent people.PjN 20:31, 23 December 2021 (UTC) strike sock - Sockpuppet_investigations/Miacek


 * Note OP has been blocked as a sock puppet for block evasion.  Volunteer Marek   15:16, 24 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 18:25, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 18:25, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Weak keep. The current sourcing is poor. I need to dig more into this. Searching in Polish for "konferencje NKWD i gestapo" does give a few hits and suggests that the topic may be notable, but it is also quite possible that our article contains some outdated or unreliable information. This (in Polish but with an English abstract) seems quite relevant and recent and discusses the topic extensively, and it seems to challenge that theory, which would suggest the article needs a rewrite or at least an update to represent modern scholarship on this topic. It would be good to see what sources this article is citing and do a proper lit review on this topic. It's possible much of the scholarship is in Polish, maybe some in Russian and German. In either case, I think the article may need a rewrite, but probably not WP:TNT, and the topic likely meets WP:GNG. This seems more like a case of tagging this with Improve sources than something we need to discuss at AfD. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 18:40, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * The way things stand, there's nothing to "improve": the article should be written from scratch, in case real sources would be found. But what are the odds? Let me quote the article: "'The best known conference took place in Zakopane,[13] in the villa 'Pan Tadeusz', located at the Droga do Białego street close to the Dolina Białego valley. The German side was represented by Adolf Eichmann. The Soviet delegation was headed by Grigoriy Litvinov.'" You genuinely believe all these scholars who have written books on this criminal could have missed such an important fact as Adolf Eichmann leading a German delegation in a conference with NKVD representatives in 1940? You've had 14 years to write a real article there! You cannot improve an article where not a SINGLE basic fact is supported by a reliable source. Obviously I did search for German and Russian sources: there was nothing really. PjN 18:51, 23 December 2021 (UTC) strike sock -Sockpuppet_investigations/Miacek
 * Then it seems likely the topic is primarily covered within Polish histiography. The article may contain errors, and perhaps even newer historiography is queestioning what was discussed in these conferences or maybe even if they happened, but the source cited does suggest that they have been a subject of academic discourse, and exist as as a topic of interest. I am not seeing a case for a TNT approach, just a copyedit. A major one, perhaps, but I am not convinced there's nothing left to salvage here. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 21:24, 23 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Obvious Keep Damn it Miacek (yes, this is a bad faith nomination from a banned user) you're gonna make me spend my precious time writing up the SPI, aren't you? Was this you too? You're basically saying what that banned sock said word for word. Putting aside the implicit racism in statements like "Polish nobodys" the conferences, especially the Zakopane one are well documented in sources. Here is Laurence Rees (already used in article), here is an Oxford University Press source  (already used in the article), here is another Oxford University Press source  (already used in the article), here is Yale University Press  (already used in the article), there's of course Robert Conquest  (already used in the article), here is an article from George Watson (scholar) a scholar at Cambridge . These are all sources ALREADY present in the article. So much for the claim that the article is sourced to a bunch of "Polish nobodys". It's also trivial to find further sources. Here is another source from Oxford Uni Press, here's one from Cornell Uni Press , here is University Press of Kentucky  and then there's a whole bunch of sources, easy to find, which are RS but maybe not strictly academic. Ok, off to write up that SPI.   Volunteer Marek   18:54, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * BTW, here is a link to the discussion with what was probably "PolskaJestNajwazniejsza"'s other account, which got itself banned pretty quick. The same exact points were raised and debunked.  Volunteer Marek   18:58, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Hey Marek, feel free to launch an SPI. You know just as well as I do that Checkusers cannot verify my alleged connection to Miacek because this user has not been active in any Wiki project for several years by now. But you'll surely find a way to get me banned by hook or by crook (like Potugin whom you mentioned got banned for "tendentious editing" 2 hours after he criticized you a bit. Amusing. So it's kinda dangerous not only to sock but just to criticize you). Anyway, back to the real issue: you just posted the string "NKVD Gestapo zakopane" on Google Books and got a number of hits (books listed on that site are usually serious stuff indeed). But that's exactly what I was pointing out: people have uncritically been repeating rumours. It's what I called "passing-by mentions". You won't find a single source that actually gives any information on these events nor cites primary sources. These authors have been fooled, sometimes surely just by this bunch of Wikipedia articles on various language editions. Now go have fund with Maicek sock hunting.PjN 19:08, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, at least you've dropped any pretense and aren't denying that you're Miacek and Potugin.  Volunteer Marek   19:18, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * No. I already told you 2 weeks ago I'm not Miacek and now I'm denying being Potugin, too. Did you expect I'd get "upset" or something? Why should I? It's odd you need to accuse all less-experienced users of being someone's sock puppets ("how could you possibly show up on this or that talk page with your mere 600 edits?"; "how did you find this article that you had never edited before" - *yawn*). Stop derailing the discussions. Post your SPI requests if you want, unless CUs post my IPs publicly (which I believe they are not allowed to do), I couldn't care less. Please now discuss the issues I raised with regard to this article and its outlandish claims, if you really want it to be kept.PjN 19:26, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Kinda too late for a denial now that you've pretty much admitted it and even thought it fit to taunt me with the "hahaha CU won't find anything because Miacek account is stale".  Volunteer Marek   19:32, 23 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Germany-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  18:43, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Poland-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  18:43, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Russia-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  18:44, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete. Bordering on a conspiracy theory. Unconnected events are strung together in the article and are not supported by sources. What sources there are discuss maybe one meeting in a footnote, like this Yale University Press collaboration with Eastern archives, brought up above, that says no documents were found but mentions a claim by a Polish historian. Real sources discussing these supposed meetings as a topic do not exist.--Iron Thain (talk) 20:12, 23 December 2021 (UTC) - WP:APL50030 - GizzyCatBella  🍁  04:33, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Congratulations on your 18th edit, and first since August. Pray tell, how did you find out about this discussion? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 20:51, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep. Obscure topic but meets WP:GNG. Possibly expand as Gestapo–NKVD collaboration because there were prisoner exchanges and other activities in addition to the conferences. Scholarly coverage here, here and here for example. The following books gives some detail about these conferences too:
 * Barbarossa 1941: Reframing Hitler’s Invasion of Stalin’s Soviet Empire
 * Poland's Struggle Before, During and After the Second World War
 * Soviet Union in World War II, History of Blood
 * Radio London and Resistance in Occupied Europe, British Political Warfare 1939-1943
 * Anders' Army, General Wladyslaw Anders and the Polish Second Corps, 1941-46
 * --Nug (talk) 00:15, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
 * The question was not "notability" per se. I mean yeah, hoaxes and refuted theories, too, can have notability. If they're notorious enough. The issues were WP:V, WP:NPOV and other core policies. I have Jstor access so I skimmed through the first article you provided: Andrzej Toczewski, “Cooperation between the Soviet Union and the Third Reich in Exchanges of Polish Population and Prisoners of War in the Years 1939–1941 - The Polish Review, Vol. 37, No. 2 (1992), pp. 209-215. It was mostly about the population transfers between Germany and the USSR which is an interesting and valid topic on its own. However, the article did exactly what I told you all at the very beginning: it only repeated the theory that such conferences took place "from March 1940 in Cracow and Zakopane", with a reference to Losy Polaków w ZSRR w latach 1939-1986 , London, 1987 and Los Polaków w niewoli sowieckiej, 1939-1956, London, 1956. A one meager paragraph with no details, and links to books that by now are completely outdated! And what is more embarassing for the promoters of this story on Wikipedia: as you see the dates of the alleged conferences categorically don't match (27 September 1939 in Brześć[1]October 1939 in Lwów[2]November 1939 in Przemyśl[1]6–7 December 1939 in Kraków[3]8–9 December 1939 in Zakopane[3]20 February 1940 in Zakopane [1]March 1940 in Kraków[4])! To sum up: a number of Polish figures began spreading rumours after the War about a series of secret conferences of Gestapo/NKVD having taken place in the occupied Poland. The story never got particularly elaborate, and it contains numerous contradictions (check the article history and alleged participants: the notorious Latvian Bolshevik Teodors Eihmans was already shot in 1938, the absurdity of presuming Maksim Litvinov's participation, Adolf Eichman's participation etc.). Some authors indeed kept (and keep) reporting (parroting) the story, but none of the sources provided stands to scrutiny. Feel free to start an article on Gestapo–NKVD collaboration though because Stalin indeed had German communists handed over to the Gestapo, I think even NKVD dossiers were handed over to the Germans. This has credible eyewitness accounts. PjN 00:51, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
 * You're now talking about Margarete Buber-Neumann which is a biographical article that describes these prison exchanges out of lack of better place. Cloud200 (talk) 09:42, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Oh, OK, so I opened this one you linked, too. Cienciala, Anna M. “Poles and Jews under German and Soviet Occupation, 1 September 1939–22 June 1941.” - The Polish Review 46:4 (2001): 391–402. Page 392 tells us:  It is known that there was some cooperation between the NKVD and the Gestapo against Polish resistance groups, but no documentary evidence has been found to date . Checkmate?PjN 00:59, 24 December 2021 (UTC) strike sock - Sockpuppet_investigations/Miacek
 * I certainly do hope you are not Miacek, the Miacek I knew was a valued contributor before going off-piste after suffering some personal issues, according to what I read on talk. I hope he recovers and comes back soon. You need a reliable source to say these conferences were a hoax (I don't know how prisoner exchanges would have been facilitated without the Gestapo and NKVD having a conference). With regard to "no documentary evidence has been found to date", that doesn't mean it was a hoax. After all, the Soviet did claim the M-R secret protocols never existed until the Soviet version was released from the Soviet archives in 1980's. Discounting a source on the basis that author is Polish seems kind of racist to me. --Nug (talk) 01:17, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
 * No, I'm not Miacek, don't worry, though I have no way to prove my innocence, so to say. But I don't get your other points: I'm not saying it's necessarily a "hoax". I was saying this is all rumours, speculations and hearsay and a scholar you linked to admitted no documentary evidence has been found. Btw, I'd appreciate if you didn't fall to the level of a Volunteer Marek and play with the ethnicity/race card: I did not discard anyone "on the basis that author is Polish". I can read basic Polish and tell which source makes sense. I only discarded these authors because they did not qualify as reliable for our purpose. Once again, I'd encourage you to start articles on valid topics such as German-Soviet population transfers and the (real) Gestapo-NKVD collaboration, if you can find decent sources. As I said, I do remember reading about a German (likely German-Jewish) emigre to the USSR who was handed over to the Nazis along with the NKVD dossiers. The article was either in German or Russian. If you keep fighting for THIS particular article at hand, though, you're fighting a losing battle.PjN 01:58, 24 December 2021 (UTC) strike sock - Sockpuppet_investigations/Miacek - GizzyCatBella  🍁  15:41, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
 * If you want to avoid "ethnicity/race card" plays, please reconsider using offensive descriptions of other editors such as "Team Poland". And if you agree the issues are not with notability than this is a case of WP:AFDNOTCLEANUP. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 08:26, 24 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep the article is well-sourced by not only Polish Institute for National Remembrance but even Russian (!) historian Alexandr Nekrich, who, based on completely separate evidence bases, happen to come to the same conclusions: there was a comprehensive intelligence, exchange of prisoners and resistance suppression cooperation between USSR and Third Reich, in this area represented by NKVD and Gestapo, respectively. And it did not happen out of thin air: this cooperation had legal foundations in German–Soviet Frontier Treaty of 28 September 1939 where it is even explicitly mentioned. Exchanges of prisoners such as German communists arrested in 30's and held in GULag being sent back to Gestapo who placed them in German concentration camps are mentioned for example by Margarete Buber-Neumann. There seems to be a fair amount of doubt about the purpose of these conferences - that is, whether they discussed population transfers or suppression of resistance, which is understandable as their protocols were likely kept secret - but not the fact they did happen. Cloud200 (talk) 07:12, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep. This is a well known and highly significant subject, although it could be expanded a little: please see my comment on this article talk page - . My very best wishes (talk) 16:50, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

''' This request should be closed or deleted. Nominated by a sock puppet of banned user  - GizzyCatBella'''  🍁  19:40, 26 December 2021 (UTC) Obviously keep -- This is clearly a notable subject, even if some people do not like it. No doubt the objective was joint action to suppress Polish resistance to what may be called the 4th partition of their country. Peterkingiron (talk) 14:37, 27 December 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.