Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Giant dog breed


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. The proposal to rename the article List of large dogs has supporters and should be further discussed on the article's talk page. Pax:Vobiscum (talk) 20:03, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Giant dog breed

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Fails GNG and the only sourced section fails NOTADVICE. Only one of the sources cited could be considered reliable and it gives little explanation of this supposed grouping, just some pros and cons of owning a big dog, the remaining sources are far from RS and of these, only the dod food company mentions “giant breeds”. A Google search revealed nothing attributable. Cavalryman (talk) 20:07, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Animal-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 20:09, 27 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete Adjective + Noun does not make an established term or notable topic. Perhaps Dog_anatomy could be expanded. Reywas92Talk 20:35, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep and rename List of large dogs. I am unsure why List of large dogs was redirected to this Giant dog breed title, but it should be the other way around. It serves our readers to be able to find information and to navigate large dog breeds with a list per WP:LISTN. We can clean this up and remove advice or OR. Lightburst (talk) 20:57, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete - the term "large dog" has no definition.  William Harris Canis lupis track.svg talk Canis lupis track.svg 08:20, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Language-related deletion discussions. Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 02:15, 31 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Science-related deletion discussions. Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 02:15, 31 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 02:15, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Closing this as delete would certainly be justifiable, but I'm not convinced we really have a meeting of minds. So, I'm going to go a bit out on a limb and see if another week of discussion will bring a more clear consensus.
 * Delete and selective merge into Dog_anatomy and any relevant articles. --Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 02:16, 31 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Merge the "notable giant dogs" section into List of individual dogs. Pburka (talk) 02:56, 31 January 2020 (UTC)
 * It looks like all those dogs are already listed. Pburka (talk) 15:28, 31 January 2020 (UTC)
 * , so the article should be straight up deleted? --Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 21:43, 31 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I do feel that giant dog breeds are a potentially notable topic, and I'm leaning towards keep. The term certainly is used among breeders and veterinarians, e.g. . Pburka (talk) 00:11, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
 * , well what about expanding the size section of the dog anatomy? --<i style="font-family:'Rock salt','Comic Sans MS'; color: Green;">Tyw7</i> (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 00:29, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't see an obvious connection between giant breeds (e.g. Wolfhounds and Great Danes) and veterinary anatomy. I certainly wouldn't expect to find a discussion of those breeds in the anatomy article. This topic is a reasonable complement to, e.g. toy dog and working dog. Pburka (talk) 01:10, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete. Giant breed appears to be indiscriminate and subjective as a descriptive term. Ajf773 (talk) 09:26, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, -- RoySmith (talk) 00:44, 5 February 2020 (UTC) <ul><li>. . . I don't even know how to use this, I'm not a wikipedian; all I'll say is this --- I'm tired of coming here and seeing my favorite pages gone. You people are killing Wikipedia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.114.255.184 (talk) 14:20, 8 February 2020 (UTC) </li></ul>
 * Comment. The claim that the terms "giant" or "large" dog breed are meaningless, undefined or subjective is easily refuted by searching Google scholar for veterinary medicine journals where the terms are commonly used and expected to be understood by the reader: . While there may be some ambiguity about a precise definition, it is clear that these terms are widely used and understood by experts. The category of giant dog breeds exists, and Wikipedia can simply refer to reliable sources to determine if any particular breed is "giant." Pburka (talk) 00:51, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

<ul><li>Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.<ol> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> </ol>

<ol> <li> The book notes on page 14: "Intuitively, the rapid growth of giant breed dogs should place stress on the development of the skeletal system. It is interesting to compare the development of giant breed dogs to humans. A person, born at 5–10 pounds, develops to skeletal maturity at a weight of 100–150 pounds in 16–18 years. A giant breed dog, born at less than 2 pounds, develops to skeletal maturity at a weight of 100–150 pounds in 12–18 months. Consequently, it should not be surprising that giant breed dogs are susceptible to skeletal abnormalities and that the adverse effects of poor nutrition, metabolic disease or other illnesses can be magnified in the skeletal development of these dogs and even in the smaller breeds." The book notes on page 63: "Large and giant breed dogs experience a disproportionately high incidence of skeletal developmental disease compared to medium and small breeds. These diseases often become clinically apparent during the rapid growth phase which occurs between four to six months of life. ... A brief review of some factors which influence changes in growth and development of large breed dogs illustrate the need for specific research on the nutritional requirements of these unique animals. First, there has been an increase in the mature size of many breeds of dogs. Breed standards for the American Kennel Club (AKC) show very few size limitations imposed on the large and giant breeds. As a result, most breeds have increased in size in an attempt to provide visual appeal and a positive response from judges in conformation competition. ... A study using Great Danes as a model of large and giant breeds of dogs was conducted."</li> <li> Quintet Publishing is owned by The Quarto Group. The book notes on page 38: "The Giant Breeds No one buys a giant breed dog unless they are prepared to reorganize their lives around it. They are expensive pets to buy, and to rear, and veterinary treatment costs more — the bigger the dog the more drugs they require. You may end up having a bigger car to accommodate it and even perhaps a bigger house, and at the end of it all you may only have had the pleasure of owning it for seven or eight years, because these dogs are not long-lived. Yet most people who have owned a giant breed dog will go through it all again with another, because no smaller dog can take its place. The giant dog must have a good temperament — it would be extremely dangerous if it did not — and most are very gentle and quiet. Although they need a large quantity of food while growing, their adult intake may be surprisingly low and they need much less exercise than the average gundog or collie. Because they are so strong, they must be trained to walk properly on a leash when young and not to bowl people over in enthusiastic greeting! The main problems arise if they become ill, since nursing is difficult and physically demanding, and, sadly, they are prone to many disease conditions. Popular examples are the Great Dane, a tall, imposing yet graceful dog, the St Bernard, traditionally bred to assist stranded mountain travellers in Switzerland, and the other Mountain dog, the white Pyrenean. From the cold East Coast of Canada, the black Newfoundland also has a thick, weather-resisting coat. The Irish Wolfhound and slightly smaller Scottish Deerhound are the largest members of the hound group, capable of considerable speed despite their size. In contrast, the huge Mastiff does not need to move very fast to protect his owner's property — who would risk upsetting him?" The book notes on page 59: "Feeding giant breed puppies is a problem, and an art. If they eat adequate amounts of prepared puppy food, they should not require additional mineral or vitamin supplements. However at this age, it is still possible for a large puppy to develop bone diseases, often manifest by deviation of the limbs from the perpendicular when viewed from in front or behind, simply because it is growing too fast. Breeders may help but many of them do overfeed their dogs, because they want to achieve maximum growth rate to obtain well-developed puppies and large, mature specimens for success in the show ring. If you have a giant breed puppy, you should consult your vet regularly about his dietary needs, because any bone problems must be corrected at the latest by six months so that permanent damage can be avoided. Puppies of the smaller breeds very rarely suffer from growth problems, and accuracy of dietary requirements is not nearly so important."</li> <li> The article notes: "The risk of GDV can be high in some larger breed dogs. For example, in a recently completed 5-year prospective study of > 1,900 show dogs, incidences of GDV in 7 large (23 to 45 kg [50 to 99 lb]) and 4 giant (> 45 kg [> 99 lb]) breeds were 23 and 26 cases/1,000 dog-years at risk, respectively.1 On the basis of this incidence, lifetime risks of developing GDV for large and giant breed dogs were estimated to be 24 and 22%, respectively. However, the lifetime risk of developing GDV in the largest breeds, such as the Great Dane, was 42%. The high incidence of GDV, together with a case-fatality rate of approximately 30%, results in GDV being a leading cause of death for large and giant breed dogs." The article lists large breed dogs as Akita, Bloodhound, Collie, Irish Setter, Rottweiler, Standard Poodle, and Weimaraner. The article lists giant breed dogs as Great Dane, Irish Wolfhound, Newfoundland, and Saint Bernard.</li> <li> The article notes: "Dilated cardiomyopathy @CM) is a common cardiac disease afflicting especially young to middleaged giant breeds i.e. Great Danes, Irish Wolfhounds and Newfoundlands (Fox, 1988; TIDHOLM, 1993)."</li> <li> The book notes on page 19: "Giant Breed Considerations Giant breeds have a unique set of problems that go with their sheer size. For large-breed loving people or those who have owned a giant breed before, these problems can be readily worked around or just plain accepted. On the other hand, for dog owners who have never owned a breed of this size before, a giant breed can be quite a challenge. Life Span Giant-size breeds usually have a rather short life span. Though a Saint Bernard may live as long as eleven or twelve years, the more typical life span hovers around eight to ten years." The book notes on page 27: "Traditionally, puppy mills have stayed away from breeding giant breed dogs; however, the Saint has been so popular at times that it, unfortunately, has been unable to avoid this fate."</li> <li> Doral Publishing is currently owned by Lumina Media. The book notes on page 206: "Owners need to take particular care with large- and giant-breed puppies. Large breeds grow faster and need less food per pound of body weight than small dogs do. They should use special puppy foods designed specifically for them. These foods are higher in protein and lower in fat than foods for smaller breeds. This is very important, since these animals continue to grow until they are at least two years old." The book notes on page 208: "If you have a large- or giant-breed puppy, don't make the mistake of switching the puppy early to adult food in order to avoid calcium excess. Adult food doesn't have sufficient calories to maintain a puppy's proper growth rate. To maintain growth, you would have to feed more adult food. The puppy would probably end up getting even more calcium than if he had stayed on the puppy food. Instead, choose a puppy food specifically designed for large and giant breeds."</li> <li> The book notes on page 26: "Some puppies, depending on their breed, may benefit from specially designed foods. For example, large- or giant-breed puppies, such as Rottweilers, Great Danes, or Mastiffs, may benefit from a diet lower in protein, and here's why: In the past, all puppies were fed the same food regardless of their breed. However, many experts believe that feeding large- and giant breed puppies a diet lower in protein and fat may reduce the incidence of bone and joint problems that can plague larger breeds. The theory is that, when large- and giant-breed dogs consume too much fat and protein, they grow too quickly, resulting in skeletal abnormalities."</li> <li> The book notes: "If you own a large-or giant-breed puppy, consider buying a specially formulated food to control their growth rate. These breeds, whose adult weight will be greater than 60 pounds, tend to suffer from skeletal abnormalities like hip dysplasia if they grow and gain weight too fast. Special diets, which have been reduced in total energy, calories, and fat, have been created to control the rate of growth and prevent these debilitating and potentially crippling conditions from developing. The diet won't affect how big your puppy will ultimately become; genetics have already determined that. Most pet supply stores carry large-and giant-breed puppy formulas."</li> <li> The book notes on page xiv: "For a multidie of reasons, more dog owners than ever before are selecting big and giant dogs. Large breeds have many and diverse appearances, taking every shape and color imaginable. Seen in a myriad of coat types, with widely differing temperaments, big dogs arose in all parts of the world at different times. The work for which they were developed varies greatly as well. There is practically no similarity or uniformity amoung the many breeds of big dogs. However, in the United States, a common thread runs through these dogs, and that is that the people who admire them own them primarily because of their size."</li> <li> The book notes on page 37: "Large Breeds (50–75 pounds) German shepherd, Labrador, English/Irish setter, Collie, Labrador retriever Giant breeds (greater than 75 pounds)  St. Bernard, Irish wolfhound, Newfoundland, Pyrenean mountain dog, Great Dane, Hungarian komondor"</li> <li> The book notes: "All but the very large and giant breeds are fully mature by the time they reach a year of age. Large breeds of dogs usually have achieved full physical growth by the time they are a year and a half old, and they have become behaviorally stable by two years of age. Giant breeds probably reach sexual maturity sometime during their second year but continue to grow in stature and weight until they are two or more years old. Their full behavioral maturity is delayed until they are two or more years of age."</li> <li> The article notes: "There is a significant difference in body size or mass among various breeds of dogs. Large breeds, such as the Great Dane and Saint Bernard, weigh as much as 75 kg and are 27-34 inches by shoulder height. Toy breeds, however, such as the Chihuahua, may weigh less than 1 kg and average 5 inches by shoulder height." The article notes: "All dogs studied were grouped on the basis of breed size. The small breeds included the Beagle, Boston Terrier, Chihuahua, Shetland Sheepdog, and Yorkshire Terrier. The middle breeds included the Collie, Doberman Pinscher, German Shepherd, Golden Retriever, Labrador Retriever, and Standard Poodle. The large group I breeds included the Great Pyrenees, Mastiff, Newfoundland, and Saint Bernard, while the large group II breeds consisted of the Great Dane and Irish Wolfhound (Table 1). The separation among the large breeds was based upon American Kennel Club minimum male breed standards for shoulder height and upon our study findings. The dogs in large group II were 3-4 inches taller at shoulder than the animals in large group I."</li> <li> The abstract notes: "We explore two datasets for dogs and find support for a negative relationship between size and longevity if we consider variation across breeds. Within breeds, however, the relationship is not negative and is slightly, but significantly, positive in the larger of the two datasets. The negative across‐breed relationship is probably the consequence of short life spans in large breeds. Artificial selection for extremely high growth rates in large breeds appears to have led to developmental diseases that seriously diminish longevity." The article notes: "Why do dogs from large breeds die young? Dogs from large breeds usually die around the age of 6 years, which is young for dogs in general (and for wolves, Mech, ’70; MacDonald, ’84). This early mortality cannot be explained by oxidative damage due to size-related energy expenditure because dogs from large breeds have a lower mass-specific metabolic rate than dogs from small breeds (Burger and Johnson, ’91; Speakman et al., 2003). In addition, there is no indication that breeds were selected for anti-aging mechanisms that could explain differences in mortality between breeds. Rollo (2002) has suggested that the elevated mortality of large individuals might be caused by high growth rates, which would induce high rates of oxidative damage during early life. Indeed, growth rates in large breeds during the first year are very high. Great Danes increase in weight 100-fold from birth in the first year, compared to 60-fold in wolves in captivity, 20-fold in poodles and 3-fold in humans (Mech, ’70; Hawthorne et al., 2004). The proposal that a high free-radical production is involved in the early mortality is in agreement with extremely high rates of bone cancer in large breeds, 60–100-fold that of smaller breeds (Tjalma, ’66; Withrow et al., ’91). In addition, the high plasma levels of the growth-promoting insulin-like growth factor I (Igf-1) that are found in large breeds (Eigenmann et al., ’88; Tryfonidou et al., 2003), combined with the inverse relation between Insulin/Igf-1 signalling and longevity in invertebrates and probably vertebrates (Partridge and Gems, 2002; Barbieri et al., 2003; Holzenberger et al., 2003; but see Carter et al., 2002) supports the idea that high growth rates cause the early mortality in large dog breeds." The article notes: "The size of giant dog breeds (Great Dane, Newfoundland, St. Bernard dog, Irish Wolfhound) has remarkably increased since 1800–1900 (see Fig. 3)."</li> <li> The article notes: "Medical records of 144 small-breed dogs (≤15 kg) and 46 medium- to large-breed dogs (>15 kg) with surgically confirmed, Hansen type I, cervical intervertebral disk extrusions were reviewed."</li> <li> The article notes: "As a result, resolution in body weight, especially for the larger breeds for which the last weight interval is “1100 pounds” (145.5 kg), would be poor." The article notes: "The only conspicuous feature of this relationship is that the largest dogs (“giant” breeds, 150 kg) all start aging rather early—in fact, before they are fully grown." The article notes: "Large dogs die young because they age quickly. Across breeds, body size is strongly positively linked to the absolute speed at which the mortality hazard increases. This relationship was still evident when looking at the aging rate relative to the current level of the mortality hazard (proportional scale); that is, large dogs age at an accelerated pace, suggesting that their adult life unwinds in fast motion."</li> </ol>

There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow giant dog breed to pass Notability, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Cunard (talk) 10:29, 11 February 2020 (UTC)</li></ul> <div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: I was tempted to close this as "keep", but since the previous relist was tending towards "delete", I think it's worth listing this one final time.
 * Keep the sources found by Cunard seem to be reliable and proves this is notice and should be kept Dq209 (talk) 14:56, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  23:07, 13 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep per WP:NEXIST for the sources identified by Cunard. -- Toughpigs (talk) 23:44, 13 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Apply the appropriate references from among those above or Delete. Listing 15 references that mention the words "giant breed" is of no value and should not be the basis for a Keep. Only several of those references above give examples of what their authors believe is a giant breed. These need to be applied as inline citations to those dogs listed in the article, and all of the other unsourced dogs removed. If nobody is going to do that, then delete.  William Harris Canis lupis track.svg talk Canis lupis track.svg 08:13, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
 * It is worth mentioning that only once in the above collection of quotes is the term “giant dog breeds” mentioned, if anything that shows the lack of notability for this as a topic. Cavalryman (talk) 12:13, 16 February 2020 (UTC).
 * That's only true if you ignore all the quotes that use the terms "giant breed" and "giant breeds of dogs", clear synonyms for "giant dog breeds". Pburka (talk) 23:19, 16 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep: informative content, but it seems better to rename the article List of large dogs. –  333-blue  at 08:45, 23 February 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.