Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Giorgi Kulua


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. As concerns Kulua. No consensus here regarding Arabuli; that article may be renominated separately.  Sandstein  12:27, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

Giorgi Kulua

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Recreation of an article previously deleted by PROD. Concern was Article about a footballer who fails WP:GNG and who has not played in a fully pro league. This remains valid. Sir Sputnik (talk) 22:48, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Sir Sputnik (talk) 22:48, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

I am also nominating the following article for the same reason. Sir Sputnik (talk) 22:57, 5 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete both - fail WP:GNG and WP:NFOOTBALL. GiantSnowman 09:33, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete both  - Fail NFOOTY as have not played senior international football nor played in a fully professional league. No indication that subjects have garnered significant reliable coverage for any other achievements to satisfy GNG. Fenix down (talk) 10:44, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete Giorgi Kulua subject has not played in top league yet, Keep Bachana Arabuli subject has played in a top league match. Inter&#38;anthro (talk) 05:26, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
 * The Geogian top flight is not confirmed as fully pro (see WP:FPL), so playing in it does not confer notability under WP:NSPORT. Sir Sputnik (talk) 05:30, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
 * @ It's not that I do not believe you but the Georgian league does not appear in the professional or non-professional leagues on WP:FPL. While this is meaning less here is also the first sentence of the Umaglesi Liga league article:


 * "The Umaglesi Liga (უმაღლესი ლიგა) is the top division of professional football in Georgia."


 * Thanks. Inter&#38;anthro (talk) 20:26, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment - That is because WP:FPL is an inclusive list based on consensus, a league is considered non-FPL by default until consensus is achieved otherwise and it is placed on the list. The non-FPL list is essentially a courtesy to users indicating where leagues have been definitively shown to be non-FPL. Fenix down (talk) 09:19, 12 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete both perhaps as they are still questionably solid. SwisterTwister   talk  06:11, 10 February 2016 (UTC)


 * It's several years since I gave up editing Wikipedia regularly with a user id, and the fact that people are still using this ridiculous "fully professional league" requirement to judge notability of football players only confirms that I was right to give up. Can anyone really justify why a player in the top division in Georgia should be considered less notable than someone who has come on as an injury-time substitute in the fourth level of English football? 86.17.222.157 (talk) 21:15, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Because a benchmark is needed for a subject-specific guideline and the notion of "fully professional leagues" is something which has gained consensus as the ability for a league to pay a professional salary to all players in all teams generally indicates that as there is sufficient interest in the competition to generate that level of cash that there is also logically going to be significant coverage of the competition to satisfy the demand from that interest.
 * Furthermore, this is simply a subject specific guideline. GNG trumps everything so any player, no matter how minor their career can warrant an article if they can be shown to satisfy GNG. In the instances above, not only do the players not play in a league of sufficient global standing, but they cannot be shown to have generated sufficient significant coverage to satisfy GNG, although I would accept that language barriers can often be unhelpful in establishing GNG in instances like this.
 * Finally, as is observed at this AfD players who initially satisfy WP:NFOOTY but do little to nothing else at a fully professional level still need to satisfy GNG, so you comment above comparing an injury-time substitute in the fourth level of English football to a player in the top division in Georgia is not really applicable as such instances are already dealt with. Fenix down (talk) 09:19, 12 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete Giorgi Kulua as WP:TOOSOON since he's in the team's reserve squad and doesn't meet WP:GNG at this stage. WP:FPL, however, specifically indicates that it is incomplete, and was so in regards to Georgian football; I've now updated it given this shows that UEFA considers the "Georgian Professional Football League" to be a "Premier Professional League" (though not belonging to the EPFL). This contains some info on Dinamo Tiblisi's player salaries. undefinedHydronium~Hydroxide~(Talk)  11:08, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I removed your addition to WP:FPL, the correct way to proceed with a listing that is associated with a guideline is to gain consensus before adding. I'm not sure what the document is saying but it is not indicating full professionalism. Looking at the last round of matches, the attendances at these matches indicate a league that is still far below the level that would normally be associated with full professionalism:
 * MERANI MARTVILI VS DINAMO BATUMI 0-4 - att: 500
 * SABURTALO VS TORPEDO KUTAISI 4-4 - att: 500
 * SHUKURA VS DINAMO TBILISI 1-3 - att: 500
 * ZUGDIDI VS DILA 1-1 - att: 400
 * These are simply not the level of attendance that is associated with a league that is paying a viable salary to all players across the board. the footballgrad article further emphasises this with comments that most games are free to attend further indicating a structure that does not lend itself to full professionalism throughout the competition. Fenix down (talk) 13:13, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
 * This is an invalid argument. Firstly I must point out that the attendance of the Shukura vs Dynamo Tbilisi match was 1000, not 500, but that is really beside the point. For most high-level football teams in most countries ticket sales are only a small percentage of revenue, with TV rights, sponsorships, shirt and other shop sales etc. providing the bulk of the revenue needed to pay the players. If we're to use this "fully professional league" requirement to judge notability then we should exclude the English Premier League, because when Wayne Rooney made his debut for Everton in that league he was an £80 per week trainee, well below the prevailing minimum wage and so not a full professional. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 20:10, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Except in that instance we wouldn't as he would obviously have passed GNG, which is the crux of this argument: neither of these players do. Fenix down (talk) 20:33, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I see that logic is not one of your strong points. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 21:03, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
 * So you completely missed my point then. Regardless of his wage wide coverage of the player would have shown to the satisfaction of GNG that he was an individual who only played football and had no non football related income and was essentially a professional player at a club whose first team was fully professional. I suppose you also haven't read the first source for justifying the football league as an fpl by noting there is one part time player, which kind of makes your previous point irrelevant. Oh well. Fenix down (talk) 22:28, 12 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete Giorgi Kulua per WP:GNG and WP:NFOOTY. The only sources I found and what I see listed here are matches and simple statistics (like this page) - There's no secondary content that covers the person in-depth, and certainly no significant coverage on the person either. This article fails WP:GNG for those reasons. He also seems to fails WP:NFOOTY, but remember... there's WP:SPORTCRIT, which is very important to note (see my bold text): "A person is presumed to be notable if he or she has been the subject of multiple published non-trivial secondary sources which are reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject." - something I'm not seeing at all. Hence, I agree that the guidelines are not met, and I agree that this perhaps falls into WP:TOOSOON.  ~Oshwah~  (talk) (contribs)   21:21, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I also see that Giorgi Kulua Bachana Arabuli has been in sorts, "stapled", onto this AFD discussion. I have not looked into the notability of this person and won't vote on this article here; because this article has generated "Keep"/"Delete" votes on both sides and with discussion, I believe that it should have a full AFD thread. If there is one (or if one is created), please let me know.  ~Oshwah~  (talk) (contribs)   21:28, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I think you probably mean that Bachana Arabuli has been "stapled" to this discussion. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 21:50, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Oops! Yes I did. Thanks for pointing that out. I copied the wrong wikilink. Fixed! :-)  ~Oshwah~  (talk) (contribs)   21:54, 12 February 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.