Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Girl gamer (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. There's a clear concensus for keeping this topic. Discussion on what to call it should continue on the article's talk page. Marasmusine (talk) 18:09, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Girl gamer
AfDs for this article: 
 * – ( View AfD View log  •  )

No explanation of significance. If we leave this like it is, we might as well have Girl Carpenter, Girl Scientist, Guy Make-up Artist, etc. The Guy Gamer article was deleted, so there is a clear gender-inequality issue. There is nothing unique about "girl gamers" other than the fact that they are a smaller percentage than gamers that are guys. Like I said, if this stands, we might as well start an article for every gender that is a minority in some activity or hobby.

In addition, the term "Gamer Girl" is not used in any credible source. Of the two sources in this article, one only uses "Girl gamers" to reference gamers that are girl, not as a specific term. The other link is broken.

The only people to use the term "Girl Gamer" are attention-seeking women only using gaming as a medium for themselves to attract other's attention. The first line of the article defines a gamer girl as a girl who games. However, this is incorrent, as is the rest of the article, because there are plenty of girls that game that are not 'girl gamers'. They are just gamers. Gamer girls are not all girls that play games, but rather that attention-seeking people that I mentioned above. Also, if a community using a term makes that term valid and worthy of an article, we should make an article for Pubfag, etc.

However, since this is not mentioned in any major publication, since it would just be an attack column. No one would write an article about this, because it is just something that exists in the community of gamers that exists. There are gamers - male and females. Then, there are so-called "gamer girls", which are in fact not gamers, but attention-lovers.

Additionally Gamer girl itself is a tautology as mentioned by another editor on the discussion page because "gamer" does not exclude girls. If not deleted, this could be merged into a serperate article like "Gender in gaming", or a subheading in the Gamer article called Gender In Gaming. --Knovevmber (talk) 05:57, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

"Girl gamer" is at the very least a valid search term and when Nintendo releases a magazine titled "Girl Gamer" and publications such as Edge discuss the "girl gamer market" it is clear that it is indeed a recognisable neologism and not in every instance an incidental combination of noun and adjective. The nominator's rationale rests on "no sources" which is evidently not true and the rest can be disregarded as opinionated original research. Again, the term receives non-trivial coverage in multiple, reliable sources, passes WP:V and WP:N and warrants coverage if not an entire article on Wikipedia. bridies (talk) 09:19, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep The term is on the contrary used in a plethora of reliable sources. Some examples:
 * http://www.edge-online.com/node/18579
 * http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-9862344-1.html
 * http://www.casualgaming.biz/news/28088/505-enters-the-girl-gamer-market
 * http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3496963.stm
 * http://news.asiaone.com/Just%2BWoman/Style%2BGuide/Fashion%2BTrends/Story/A1Story20080624-72633.html
 * http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/digital-life/games/girls-play-games-too-explains-pro-gamer-jinx-20090924-g41i.html
 * rename (to Gender and gaming) and keep there are plenty of reliable sources gbooks gscholar that discuss the topic. Even without a rename theres plety of sources for "girl gamer" gscholar Active Banana (talk) 12:13, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
 * NOTE: Here is the link to the original AfD http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Girl_gamer], I cannot figure out how to get it to show properly in the box. Can someone fix it? Active Banana (talk) 12:16, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Nominator used wrong capitalization. DMacks (talk) 13:39, 1 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep and rename. Topic is clearly notable, as evidenced by several conferences with academic research and organizations with groups specifically dedicated to it (linked in article). But then we'll have to create a zillion other X in Y articles--yes, as soon as there are sources demonstrating that it's a notable topic. There really are given sources that specifically focus on the female aspect here, not just two columns of parallel data, so cloning it and swapping every gendered word, as appears to have been the WP:POINTy genesis of Guy Gamer, isn't an automatic keeper if the girl article survives. The term itself does not even need to be used (although others say it is used), per WP:NOTNEO policy, as long as it clearly describes the topic. However, some of the issues really are gender-comparison-related (or at least also highlight the current male-dominance of the field). There is an active discussion on article talk-page involving several ideas for renaming to something involving the term "gender" instead of highlighting one particular one--that doesn't require an AFD to resolve. DMacks (talk) 13:58, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep as arguments above that other have written on. Do not rename to gender in gaming, as people have no problem finding the topic under girl gamer. There would be no opposition to girl carpenter if other people had written about this topic, so this argument that other stuff does not exist is irrelevant, each topic has its own merits. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 22:41, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Although AFD is not really the place to discuss page moves, for the record I also oppose moving to "Gender and gaming". No convincing argument has thus far been provided in support of such a move and a WP:GOOGLE of the term counts for nothing. bridies (talk) 06:04, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

 Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –MuZemike 16:19, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep and Rename Clearly Notable subject with a ton of potential, but I am certainly in favor of renaming this article to a more official and appropriate name. Vodello (talk) 04:15, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep and rename to Women and video games, or Video gaming and gender, or something similar. I'm not sure exactly what the best title would be, but 'girl gamer' seems somewhat pejorative and inaccurate; I am convinced the basic topic is notable, however. Robofish (talk) 15:39, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.

The AFD was never listed in the first place. It has now been listed on today's (July 10) list of AFDs. –MuZemike 16:19, 10 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep - Pointy nomination. The editor has said on the talk page that the REAL reason he wants the article deleted is that there is no "Guy Gamer" article anymore. His rationale is not based in policy, but in the fact that he is offended by perceived sexism against males. Others have demonstrated that the topic has been studied and mentioned in news and scholarly works, and is thus notable. かんぱい！ Scapler (talk) 16:26, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment - Treading on the edge of NPA and AGF here. Let's focus on the article and not the nominator putting it up Hasteur (talk) 23:42, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment - All I am doing is repeating what he himself said on the talk page: "I either want a complete deletion of this article, or the resurrection of the Gamer Guy article". Pointing out a pointy nomination does not violate any policies. かんぱい！ Scapler (talk) 03:29, 11 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep - Per bridies. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 16:41, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep and oppose move - Sources clearly exist for the term. A personal opinion about the perceived "real" meaning of a term does not override reliable sources. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 17:29, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Games-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 18:48, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep and move to Video gaming and gender. I can understand the nom.'s rationale, but this is the most practical solution. Claritas § 20:23, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep without move If there's going to be a "gaming in gender" article, then I can see merging part of this there, but "girl gamer" (or grrl gamer, for that matter) is a reasonable search term and so should point somewhere appropriate. Jclemens (talk) 20:30, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Move: Per above explanations Gaming and Gender would be the ideal place I could think to see this Hasteur (talk) 23:40, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep and do not move per bridies. There are many sources which support the article at this title. It is clearly notable, and clearly at the correct title. ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WikiProject Japan ! 01:40, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep The current title seems to be good plain English per WP:COMMONNAME and this usage is well supported by sources such as Girl Gamers and their Relationship with the Gaming Culture. Note, by the way, that participation in Wikipedia is ~90% male - a telling indication of the nature of this place.  Colonel Warden (talk) 06:54, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with the no move, but all those redlink suggested names could be come redirects, does anyone object to htem being created? Graeme Bartlett (talk) 09:08, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * That does not mean Wikipedia, or its editors, are inherently sexist just because the majority of them are male. –MuZemike 00:09, 12 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep and oppose move - Plenty of coverage via reliable sources, most of which refer to this term directly. The only move I would consider is a women in gaming move that would not only cover this, but possibly expand on it with examples. --Teancum (talk) 11:39, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep without move - As Bridies notes, the term is clearly in popular use and is easily sourced with RSes. Per Jclemens and Teancum I would not be opposed to a merge with a hypothetical "gender in gaming" article but only on the condition that "girl gamer" formed a distinct section within this new article and that redirects pointed at this subsection. The term is certainly somewhat sexist but that is not a valid reason to exclude it from a non-censored Wikipedia. The goal here is to report information not to cure society's phraseological shortcomings. -Thibbs (talk) 12:20, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment - WP:SNOW anyone? かんぱい！ Scapler (talk) 13:03, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Snow keep and discuss rename if necessary. Shooterwalker (talk) 17:42, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep and move to Gender and video games, leaving "Girl gamer" as a redirect (I assume that's technically possible). Buddy431 (talk) 20:24, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.