Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gligor Zisov


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. TL;DR. AfD is for deciding whether an article stays or goes, not for whatever happened on this page. Would recommend starting a new AfD with that in mind. -Scottywong | chat _ 20:57, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Gligor Zisov

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I didn`t find any source on the internet (Google Books, website etc ) about this person and I don`t think that this person is notable according to the policy for people here in english wikipedia. It`s an article with many problems (POV, verification of citations, strusture etc.) Vagrand (talk) 23:29, 17 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment: The source provided for the creation of this article is the last book from Professor Blagoy Shklifov - На кол вода пиехме, ИК "Изток-Запад", София, 2011, ISBN 978-954-321-961-2. It is based on different stories of Bulgarian eyewithnesses about the events in Northern Greece between 1912 and 1927, which were recorded from Professor Shklifov. One of them is the story from Zisov. Jingiby (talk) 05:16, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
 * The link that you provided is from a blog. Was this books published ? The almost reliable Dimitris Lithoxoou doesn't mention any fact about accrocities at Aposkepos neither at Vasileiada (Zagoritsani) in this period .Vagrand (talk) 06:58, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

This is part from the book published online by the publishing house Изток - Запад. Jingiby (talk) 07:28, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I can't read Bulgarian. Could you please verify the year of this event descripted by person. II think that the year is wrong cause the village was destroyed on 1903, after the Illiden uprising, by the Ottoman army. Another fact is that Kastoria was liberared from the Τurkish authorities on November 1912. The presence of the Greek army this year does not seems right, when the front at the 2nd Balkan War was in Eastern Macedonia.Vagrand (talk) 07:38, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Probably there was garrison as in every other village, same as greek troops in city of Kastoria, Thessaloniki, on islands or elsewhere. So works every army in case of military occupation. Do you need source the Wehrmacht dispached troops in Aegean Macedonia or Thessaly during World War II, no matter they fought on Eastern front, Northern Africa, Western Europe, etc.? I don't see anything wrong with the article and i will vote with "no" for it's deletion. --Подпоручикъ (talk) 20:49, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I can not. There is only the beginning of the book. The cited in the article pages are not included. Jingiby (talk) 18:12, 18 September 2012 (UTC)


 * There were Greek troops in this part of Macedonia during the Second Balkan War. Just one example - in July 1913 the Bulgarian revolutionary Vasil Chekalarov was killed by Greek troops (and Greek andartes, too) near Drosopigi, Florina (Bel Kamen).--AKeckarov (talk) 09:27, 19 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Drosopigi and Polykeraso are not in the same side of the mountain of Verno (Vitsi). The article still can not fulfill the criteria of the encyclopaedia of life and the text lacks references attesting to the biography and the historical events that took place. And we still don`t know any other fact about his death, why he was send to Zagoritsani, why the other 8 persons are not mentionned anywhere, the month of the execution and the most significant WHY this person is significant.--Vagrand (talk) 22:00, 19 September 2012 (UTC)


 * The 2nd Balkan War started on 16 June 1913. According to the article, Gligor Zisov was killed in the period between the two balkan wars.--Vagrand (talk) 01:09, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
 * According to the article Zisov was beaten by Greek soldiers In May 1913 "on the eve of the Second Balkan War". It is said that "soon after" he was arrested and killed, but there isn't a date or some other benchmark - before or after 16 June. How do you know when he was killed? Are you have any further information?--AKeckarov (talk) 07:55, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * You questioned the presence of Greek troops, pointing out that the Greek troops at that time were in Eastern Macedonia. I answered: "Not only in Eastern Macedonia (in Western too)" and prove it. (I can add more arguments for that).
 * The article referred to a serious source: a book by a recognized professor, a specialist in this region. In this book, Professor Shklifov used one of the approved methods of modern research: interviews. More than one of his informants confirmed the facts about the teacher Zisov. It is true that it is better to add more sources, but it does not make the information false.
 * Which "other 8 persons"?--AKeckarov (talk) 08:19, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Perchaps it`s my fault. Wikipedia articles should be based mainly on reliable secondary sources:
 * On the article now, "Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. (WP:Identifying reliable sources#Overview)
 * Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for checking the facts, or with no editorial oversight. Such sources include websites and publications expressing views that are widely acknowledged as extremist, or promotional in nature, or which rely heavily on rumors and personal opinions. Questionable sources are generally unsuitable for citing contentious claims about third parties, which includes claims against institutions, persons living or dead, as well as more ill-defined entities. The proper uses of a questionable source are very limited.(WP:Identifying reliable sources#Questionable sources)
 * Self-published material may be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications.(WP:Identifying reliable sources#Self-published sources (online and paper)) [The book was published after the death of the author Blagoy Shklifov who died in 2003. The book is published (?) in 2011. I think his works are not accepted by the most historian or scholars of balkan studies.]
 * As for his father, *''Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves (the bold is not mine), especially in articles about themselves, without the requirement that they be published experts in the field, so long as: 3. it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject; 5 the article is not based primarily on such sources.(WP:Identifying reliable sources#Self-published and questionable sources as sources on themselves)
 * Material based purely on primary sources should be avoided. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors.Primary, secondary, and tertiary sources.(WP:Identifying reliable sources#Primary, secondary, and tertiary sources)
 * Partisan secondary sources should be viewed with suspicion as they may misquote or quote out of context. In such cases, look for neutral corroboration from another source.(WP:Identifying reliable sources#Quotations)
 * The statement that all or most scientists or scholars hold a certain view requires reliable sourcing that directly says that all or most scientists or scholars hold that view.(..)Editors should avoid original research especially with regard to making blanket statements based on novel syntheses of disparate material.(WP:Identifying reliable sources#Academic consensus)
 * The more widespread and consistent this use is, the stronger the evidence. For example, widespread citation without comment for facts is evidence of a source's reputation and reliability for similar facts, while widespread doubts about reliability weigh against it.(WP:Identifying reliable sources#Usage by other sources)
 * Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for checking the facts, or which lack meaningful editorial oversight, or those with an apparent conflict of interest.(WP:Verifiability#Sources that are usually not reliable)
 * As for the POV issues of the article:
 * Avoid stating opinions as facts. Usually, articles will contain information about the significant opinions that have been expressed about their subjects. However, these opinions should not be stated in Wikipedia's voice. Rather, they should be attributed in the text to particular sources, or where justified, described as widespread views.(WP:POV#Explanation of the neutral point of view)
 * Prefer nonjudgmental language. A neutral point of view neither sympathizes with nor disparages its subject (or what reliable sources say about the subject), although this must sometimes be balanced against clarity.(WP:POV#Explanation of the neutral point of view)
 * Indicate the relative prominence of opposing views. Ensure that the reporting of different views on a subject adequately reflects the relative levels of support for those views, and that it does not give a false impression of parity, or give undue weight to a particular view.(WP:POV#Explanation of the neutral point of view)
 * Thinking of quotations: The internal structure of an article may require additional attention, to protect neutrality, and to avoid problems like POV forking and undue weight. (WP:POV#Article structure)
 * As for the accessibility of sources
 * When quoting a source in a different language, provide the original text and an English translation, either in the body of the article or in a footnote.(..)Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations by Wikipedians, but translations by Wikipedians are preferred over machine translations.(WP:Accuracy#Accessibility) [Note:Sources must be translated in English, keeping in parenthensis the original title and the publisher)].
 * challenged claims that are supported purely by primary or self-published sources or those with an apparent conflict of interest.(WP:Accuracy#Exceptional claims require exceptional sources)
 * Οther thoughts:
 * His father was from Aposkepos and lived their. But he did not witness the events. (The fathers author is one of the interviewrs). They are many accurancy issues (see version before it was changed without providing sources) about if he was a schoolmaster (when he was the only teacher), if he was born in the city of Kastoria or not, the reason why he was arrested in the end, if all facts are real when their is not other sources about the burning of the village in 1913 (, the beating of the Bulgarian school teacher, the presence of the Greek army in the village, and the killing of residents of Zagoritsani including Gligor Zisov. The second quotation arw POV as the beating of the teacher could discribed in one phrase. The part  I watched all this, wondering if a mother could have possibly birthed such animals. is an example of it. There are σομε things that I cannot understand such as why a teacher of Bulgarian language who didn`t educated or studied in Greek (?) was forced to teach in Greek, why he said that Greece and Bulgarian were allies when their was war among them (2nd Balkan War), why he was not executed  in first place, why he executed in the end and why, why he was sended to Zagoritsani, if the Greek soldiers had orders to torture Bulgarian teachers if they refuses to teach Greek or to execute civilians in Zagoritsani and the most significant, why he was send back to Polykeraso to teach in the school as an example.
 * --Vagrand (talk) 18:34, 20 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Perhaps the fault is mine, because I didn't show you previously that I am familiar with this policy. Then you could avoid part of these quotes - some of them are pointed even twice. There is a term "Primary source" in Wikipedia. Primary sources are permitted (“primary sources are permitted if used carefully”). We have here a primary source used by scientist, specialist of this region. Of course, "All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than to the original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors". So, if you find "interpretive claims" etc. you are free to mark them in the text and discuss. It is always better to find more sources and to point not only the facts, but also to improve the interpretations.
 * If you suggest that we have here "poor reputation" of the source etc., you should prove it. Also, if you suggest that these sources are extremist (or even widely acknowledged as extremist?!?), you should prove it. Of course, then you will need to discuss whether Carnegie endowment for international peace. Report of the International Commission to Inquire into the Causes and Conduct of the Balkan wars, Published by the Endowment Washington, D.C. 1914 is "extremist" too. (There are facts there about many atrocities of the Greek army on the eve of and during Second Balkan war. They have been identified by an international committee with representatives of the contemporaneous Great Powers.)
 * What that means: “I think his works are not accepted by the most historian or scholars of balkan studies.” You think so? And which scholar?
 * I don’t understand this: "As for his father, Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves ..., especially in articles about themselves, without the requirement that they be published experts in the field, so long as: 3. it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject; 5 the article is not based primarily on such sources…” Which father? Do you remember my words that this Wikipedia article is based on the on the interviews of more than one contemporary?
 * You are right here – “Prefer nonjudgmental language. A neutral point of view neither sympathizes with nor disparages its subject”. Let's see what are your suggestions for improving phrases. Or maybe you can propose some different view for this person and his life?
 * Regarding this “When quoting a source in a different language” – We have three times quoting the source. In two of them the quotes themselves are in English. I'll try to improve this gradually.
 * Which “many accurancy issues”? How of them do you try to improve? Or maybe you just not like this article because of other reasons ?
 * Please dont be irritable. I dont access the book and I dont understand phrases of it, like how his was a schoolmaster in a one-teacher school, why the first editoer mentionned as place of birth the city of Kasroria, why he cooporatited at first with the authorities and then was exexuted, was he was at first sended to Thessaloniki (ie. report) but then in the village of Zagoritsani sth probably happened and he was executed, why he was simply beated and not arrested or jailed if was a member of the Bulgarian agent, why they didn't execute him at first but after, who said that he was Bulgarian and not Slavophone, Macedonian Greek or what ever, if the bodies of militia had orders for these events etc. I cant edit an article if I dont have access to the book or the text has many open issues.--Vagrand (talk) 21:19, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I am not irritable. I just don't understand why do you writing things that have never been included in the article. Let's start one by one. Where the first why the first editor mentioned as place of birth the city of Kasroria? His/her first edition was Zisov was born in the village of Aposkep. If you are claiming otherwise, please give a link.--AKeckarov (talk) 07:33, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Please, be more accurate about some facts:
 * Where did was written in the article, that he was born in the town of Kastoria?
 * To begin with, the first author of this article, had a internal link to the city of Kastoria and his name was added from him in the city`s article . So the fist writter how had access to the book considered his place of birth the city of Kastoria.--Vagrand (talk) 01:09, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, the first author had put wrong internal link in the article, but there wasn't assertion in this article that Zisov was born in the town of Kastoria. The incorrect link was put for the region where he was a teacher. We are talking only about wrong link (and incorrect term for Kastoria region - it was in Bulgarian "Kostursko"), not for assertion that he Zisov born in Kastoria.--AKeckarov (talk) 08:09, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Above you wrote about some "other 8 persons"? I asked you “Which other 8 persons"? I see no response.
 * I answered that. See in my first line.--Vagrand (talk) 01:09, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry, Vagrand, I can not find the answer about these 8 persons. Can you help me?--AKeckarov (talk) 08:14, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * "Perchaps it`s my fault.".Period. Search this phrase with Ctrl + F.--Vagrand (talk) 21:19, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I still cant not find the answer why 8 persons?--AKeckarov (talk) 07:59, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
 * What burning of the village in 1913?
 * It was mentionned by a user in the Bulgarian wiki. I sould not mention it here.--Vagrand (talk) 01:09, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I see. Maybe it's better not to mix the two debates or when we quote something from the another debate, to indicate it.--AKeckarov (talk) 08:14, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Ι agree with this. The village was burned in 1904 for the first time for Makedonomahoi and for the second time in 1946 (Greek Civil War). Vagrand (talk) 21:19, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * If you can not explain certain facts, please ask. I’ll explain what I can, but if we can't understand something that does not make the information in the article false. So:
 * You wrote: “ … why a teacher of Bulgarian language who didn`t educated or studied in Greek (?) was forced to teach in Greek”. I will not go into an explanation of educational struggle between Greeks and Bulgarians in Macedonia, but I will offer you one possible explanation - it is on page 44 of the book, where, describing Zisov conversation with the Greeks, is pointed that he knew Greek.
 * This is only an ypothesis, no source says that he know well Greek, that he was able to teach this language, then it was katharevousa, more difficult Greek and almost all greek teachers were educated in Athens.--Vagrand (talk) 01:09, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
 * It is good to raise hypotheses, the problem is that these hypotheses are intended to image the information in the article as false. So, the information isn't false - we have a source that this teacher from Aposkep knew Greek. (By the way, off the topic - Can I ask do you have some statistics what percentage of the Greek educational staff in Macedonia was educated in Athens? We have some examples for the contrary.)--AKeckarov (talk) 08:32, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * (Its a difficult period for my to find sources. But I know many examples of Greek teachers, like Konstantinos Tsioulkas, who educated in Athens primarily and Constantinople with scholarships). Where is that source that he knew Greek?--Vagrand (talk) 21:19, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I am sure that there were many Greek teachers educated in Athens. I mentioned above the source about Zisov's knowledge of Greek and the page.--AKeckarov (talk) 08:06, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
 * You wrote: “why he said that Greece and Bulgarian were allies when their was war among them?”. I have to ask you, did you read the article that you criticize. It is clearly written: “… on the eve of the Second Balkan War”, i.e. before the formal dissolution of the Balkan Alliance.
 * Their was not a formal dissolution of the Balkan Alliance, the alliance broke up with the unexpected attack of the Bulgarian army. As for the "alliance" before the start of the 2nd war, bulgarian rebels was entered in Greek Macedonia.--Vagrand (talk) 01:09, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I said exactly this. The formal dissolution was later, in June 16th, so it is logical that in May 1913 Zisov refers on Allied Relationships between 2 nations.--AKeckarov (talk) 08:39, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * How can to countries, after a war, be allies, when guerillas were formed?--Vagrand (talk) 21:28, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Two countries were allies until June 16th 1913. There were repression against the alien population, even armed conflicts (at Angista (bg:Бой при Ангиста)) in May 1913 etc), but until June 16 the two countries were allies.--AKeckarov (talk) 08:16, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
 * You wrote “…the most significant, why he was send why he was send back to Polykeraso to teach in the school as an example.  Who state that he was send back to Polykeraso to teach in the school?--AKeckarov (talk) 10:44, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
 * None. The phrase says that he was sended (from the Greek army?) back to Polykeraso. To do what there; Why they sended him there and when? Ι dont have access in the book but all seems to unclear to me.--Vagrand (talk) 01:09, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes the problem is that you do not have access to this interesting book. He was sent to Chereshnitsa to serve as an example for the locals - edification (εποικοδόμηση I think), intimidation, not to teach anybody.--AKeckarov (talk) 08:46, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * He was send back "to serve as an example." I still dont understant this, its seems unclear. Intimidation in Greek meens εκφοβισμός, Zisov was send to back to teriffied who? Edification meens διαπαιδαγώγηση, so Zisov was send to back to educate people. What you meen, he cooperated with authorities and after he was executed ??? Pour l'amour de Dieu (Για όνομα του Θεού in French) what happened realy?--Vagrand (talk) 21:19, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * You said it yourself - to terrify the local residents. He did not cooperated with the new, Greek authorities and and therefore he served as an example of what happens to dissenters. Maybe the word "bound" in the article is not very clear. It is clear from Shklifov's book that his hands were tied and thus he was back in Chereshnica by the autorities.--AKeckarov (talk) 08:33, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

I didn`t said for any author that he is an extremist, sorry but you said. (And please don't prejudge people). As I said I think that the author of the book Blagoy Shklifov is not cited in any article of english wikipedia or Google Books for the general aspects of slavic speakers in Macedonia or the history of the area. In my opinion (that is not part of the discussion because is my personal thought and cannot be used as an argument in wikipedia, when we speak only whith arguments based on the policy), an historian in the end of 20th centunry when he says that all slavic speakers (absolutist view ?) of the region nowdays are Bulgarians and modern Macedonian [sic] language is a Bulgarian dialect, those are not seems accurate for me who I grown up in this area and I read some books about the history of Macedonia.--Vagrand (talk) 22:23, 21 September 2012 (UTC)


 * If you did not say anywhere that the author is an extremist, then, in what context you put these long quotations above for "sources .... widely acknowledged as extremist"? Maybe I should not comment them? I think if we start to express our personal opinion so extensively, there will be no a big progress i this conversation.--AKeckarov (talk) 08:56, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I told clearly that is my personal opinion and that's it, I kept the layout clear.--Vagrand (talk) 21:19, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I respect your personal opinion. --AKeckarov (talk) 08:35, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Note: For those how can read Greek or Bulgarian, (for Greek the translation of Bulgarian wiki in this blog, for the text in the bulgarian wiki bg:Черешница (дем Костур)) the teacher of Polykerasos was Vasilef Traptsef and the name of Gligor Zisov is not mentionned.--Vagrand (talk) 22:34, 21 September 2012 (UTC)


 * It is another mistake: It is pointed clearly that Kuzman Vasilev Traptsef was a member of Macedonian-Adrianopolitan Volunteer Corps, killed in March 1913. Not teacher. How long will we continue with this kind of "arguments"? --AKeckarov (talk) 09:13, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry about the name, my false, other person. "Αυτοί είναι ο Αριστιντ Νταμιάνοφ, Βούλγαρος παιδαγωγός.." "(Menbers) were Aristid Damianof (could be translitered in Greek as Aristides Damianos), Bulgarian educator..."--Vagrand (talk) 21:19, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * No problem. The important here is to know that after the Ilinden Uprising Aristide Damyanov (bg:Аристид Дамянов)) emigrated to Bulgaria. At the outbreak of the First Balkan War he was in Bulgaria and joined as a volunteer in the Macedonian-Adrianople volunteers. I.e. he was not in Chereshnitsa and teaching position was vacant.--AKeckarov (talk) 08:42, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Notability
All the evidence that we have so far is that there was a Greek military section in the village. We have also some oral testimonies about the beating of the teacher (which is original research by the author of the book), and there is no information about his death that can be verified from other sources. He is not an historical figure because he was a victim (witch is not verified from other sources) as some other who where killed in accrosities of all parts (Greek-Bulgarian-Muslim, accordind to the Report of the International Commission), and nothing something more. He is simly a case of Non-notable. "A person is presumed to be notable if he or she has been the subject of multiple published[3] secondary sources which are reliable, intellectually independent of each other,[4] and independent of the subject.[5]
 * If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability; trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources may not be sufficient to establish notability.[6]
 * Primary sources may be used to support content in an article, but they do not contribute toward proving the notability of a subject.(WP:Notability (people)#Basic criteria)"

Ref [4]: Sources that are pure derivatives of an original source can be used as references, but do not contribute toward establishing the notability of a subject.(Ref.4, WP:Notability (people))

I think is clear to all of as that this person (Gligor Zisov) was not a notable figure. Gligor Zisov was not mentionned anywhere (Глигор Зисов Глигор Зисов Gligor Zisov Zisov Gligor)The are not in the internet or Goolge Books reference any other reference besides the book of Blagoy Shklifov (Благой Шклифов), witch AKeckarov told that he has access to it.--Vagrand (talk) 22:23, 21 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Neither in the University of Montreal (Université de Montréal) database where I can access to many online puplications.--Vagrand (talk) 17:20, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Gregory Zisos (Γρηγόριος Ζήσου ή Γρηγόριος Ζήσωφ) if we could ascribe his name in Greek, is not encyclopedic (notable) because he was killed by Greek soldiers, but because there are no sources that mention him as a person who participate in an event and because of this is notable. A injustice death of a person do not make him notable.--Vagrand (talk) 01:29, 22 September 2012 (UTC)


 * What that means: "which is original research by the author of the book"? The author of the book (who uses this interviews) was a professor, academic scientist who had worked in Bulgarian Academy of Sciences, University of Szeged (Hungary), Sofia University etc.
 * Regarding the place of the teachers in Macedonia in the beginning of XX century, there is a MA thesis by Julian Allan Brooks with the significant title "Shoot the Teacher!" Education and the Roots of the Macedonian Struggle" ([summit.sfu.ca/system/files/iritems1/10178/etd1944.pdf]). The place of teachers in uneducated peasant part of Macedonia is not the same with the place of the teachers in contemporary England, France etc. As Julian Allan Brooks state "In the villages of Macedonia the teacher was all there was for an intelligentsia. Thus the teacher symbolized the modernity of peasants cherished..." (p.175). "Teachers were the sole intelligentsia in many places" (p. 9, note 12)... You can read there that the role of these teachers is significant not only from the POV of the education and culture, but from POV of the policy, clerical situation etc. As many other teachers Zisov was a was a leader of the residents of Chereshnitsa and the fact that you can not find additional information about him do not make the information untrustworthy.--AKeckarov (talk) 10:16, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

How can a linguistic make a research about the slavic language of the Kastoria (Kostour) area without knowing a single word in Greek ? And to answer what you stated, I should remind you the influence of Catholic Church in many countries, like France, till the late 1960s. Teachers were affiliated and educated from the church. Should we make an article for all of them ? --Vagrand (talk) 21:50, 24 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I didn't understand how do you know that Shklifov did not knew a "single word in Greek"?!? I can argue, but here more important is that he made many Slavic researches, not researches for the Greek language itself.
 * Regarding the other argument, we can not compare in this way the level of education and especially the society role of the teachers in the country of "citoyen" - France in the twentieth century (and even earlier) and the situation in uneducated, peasant part of Macedonia - haunted by transnational and religious feuds. Please, read the work by Julian Allan Brooks pointed above. Of course, there are other sources, too.--AKeckarov (talk) 08:59, 25 September 2012 (UTC)


 * To sum up, what according to the policy (notability of people) makes him notable? And after please vote, above the comments, because is the 7th day today.--Vagrand (talk) 20:14, 25 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, I think that I explained my position. Of course, Gligor Zisov was not some greatest person, but he was a leader for this village in Macedonia at a time of great changes and tests. As many other educationists in comparable position - whether they were Bulgarians, Greeks, Serbs, Aromanians or others. As I pointed, one position in different eras and geographical regions have different weight.--AKeckarov (talk) 13:31, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
 * P.S. Of course, the article needs significant improvements.--AKeckarov (talk) 13:37, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Greek army presence in Tseresnitsa (Polykeraso) and general mention about killing teachers and priests in Kastoria (Kesrie) Area
Some days after Mr. Venizelos's declaration, the heir, Prince Constantine, became King of Greece (March 6/19). '''The effects of this change made themselves felt on the relations between the Greeks in occupation and the indigenous population. We may begin our examination of these relations with Castoria. From the beginning of the occupation, the authorities there pretended to ignore the very existence of the Bulgarian population...''' The Bulgarians were not "Christians" in "our sense." The Greek bishop of Castoria received the deputations sent to him from all the villages, and was in fact the center of this active assimilation. '''The evzones played the part of apostles in this conversion at the bayonet's point. As examples we may cite the villages of Gabreche, Drenoveni, Tchernovitsa, Tourie, Ragoritchani, Dembeni, etc. In the villages of Breznitsa, Gorno and Dolno Nestrame, all the inhabitants were thrown into prison and driven thereby to call themselves Greeks. The reply given to a man who said he was a Bulgarian was : "Wast thou born at Sofia ; there are no Bulgarians in Macedonia; the whole population is Greek."... Victory secured in the villages which were disarmed, then came the turn of the intellectuals, the Bulgarian clergy, schoolmasters and officials. A number of persons whose names and cases are cited in the documents in the possession of the Commission, were arrested, beaten, put in prison and even killed. The Bulgarian Metropolis of Castoria was, at first, ignored by the authorities so far as its legal institution went : then cut off from the population under severe penalties for any communication; and finally, about the beginning of June, formally blockaded by twenty or thirty soldiers and searched by the police... We have also sufficiently complete data on events at Vodena (now called Edessa). Our informant there, as at Castoria, remembers how the Hellenic army entered in triumph on October 18/31, amid cries of joy from the population. Each house harbored ten to twenty soldiers, freely and without asking pay, and the town distributed gratuitously 6,000 okas of bread per day. The time had not come of forced requisitions, without receipt, demanding everything without allowing any merit to the giver, who had to obey. Ten days later, the Greeks were beginning to say, "We shall cut your tongues to teach you to speak Greek." They began confiscating private property, and sending things they liked to Greece; furniture, cattle, etc. The churches and schools were immediately taken, the Slav inscriptions destroyed, the offices burned, the priests beaten and driven out. Then began the arrest of influential persons in the different villages''', such as Vestchitsa, Tsarmarinovi, Piskopia, Arsene, St. Elvas, Vettecope. The soldiers said to the notables in prison in Vestchitsa, "If you want to be free, be Greeks."

(bold text is mine, two type mistakes: Wast thou born at Sofia to be read as Was you born at Sofia and Ragoritchani - Zagorichani; text taken from "Report of the International Commission to Inquire into the Causes and Conduct of the Balkan War" (1914) by Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, p.197-199 ). --Подпоручикъ (talk) 21:28, 20 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bulgaria-related deletion discussions. — Frankie (talk) 16:14, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Greece-related deletion discussions. — Frankie (talk) 16:14, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. — Frankie (talk) 16:14, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. — Frankie (talk) 16:14, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Comments

 * Comment -- The Balkan wars were commonly a nasty business. I am quite prepared to believe that the Greeks were not kind to a Bulgarian minority (and probably vice versa).  One result of the conflicts of the 20th century and the rise of the nation state in Europe has been to gather people of a single ethnicity in one country.  The collection of eye-witness statements by academics is a legitimate variety of research, commonly known as oral history.  Sometimes the results of such research do not make pleant reading for the perpetrators and theri descendants, but that does not make them untrue.   Personally, I would have preferred to see a more general article dealing with the subject as a whole, before we got down to the biographies of individual victims, however heroic.  Here we have an issue about propaganda, as I am sure that the Bulgsarian authorties particualrly in the Communist era would ahve made the best they could of anything to the credit of theri own and the denigration of a capitlaist neighbour.  WP requires reliable sources.  Self-published works are frowned upon as close to WP:OR.  On the other hand, peer-reviewed works, whether books or articles, are normally good sources.  Since I do not read Bulgarian (or even the Cyrllic alphabet).  I am not qualified to judge.  This article does cite a source.  Until some one can discredit that source, I would suggest that he article should be kept, but I know lilte of the subject.   Peterkingiron (talk) 15:31, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Do you thing that Gligor Zisov is notable according to notability of people; Because here in this wikipedia discussion, we examine the notability of the person.--Vagrand (talk) 21:31, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

I would like to clarify that my intent in putting up this article was to translate an existing one from Bulgarian wiki, because I thought it was worthy of preservation for an English-speaking audience, not simply a Bulgarian one, whose language, I confess, is rather obscure to the rest of the world. I would like to keep regional propaganda debates out of it, for as Peterkingiron has stated, the Balkan Wars were a nasty business. What is important to note is that as far as we know, Gligor Zisov existed, and the accounts given describe true events. For this reason, I would like to see this article kept, until a broader article of the events following the First Balkan War can be produced, which will contextualize the article I did my best to translate. --C3august (talk) 19:15, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.