Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Globus Cassus (second nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was no consensus. Jaranda wat's sup Sports! 19:35, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Globus Cassus
AfDs for this article: 
 * – (View AfD) (View log)

This article survived a previous AfD a while ago on the basis of what are, as far as I can see, flawed arguments. It claims notability on the basis of the fact that it was exhibited at the Venice Biennale; however, this is not a valid argument as per WP:N notability is not inherited. It only gets 644 Google hits, most of which are Wikipedia, its mirrors, the occasional MySpace blog, book catalogues and a small number of fairly specialised news sites from around the time of the Biennale. The latter do not confer notability either (notability is enduring) -- Wikinews is more appropriate for topics such as this. The Globus Cassus website itself is a wiki which at times has been heavily spammed and poorly maintained; the Amazon.com sales rank for the book is currently 1,581,876. — jammycakes (t)(c) 07:46, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment. Since submitting this second AfD, I have taken a closer look at the first one, and to be honest, it is a joke. Not one contributor referenced any Wikipedia policies, nor did anyone provide any references or sources establishing the notability of the concept in its own right. The entire argument boiled down to WP:ILIKEIT versus WP:IDONTLIKEIT. This article requires multiple, non-trivial references to demonstrate its enduring notability, and these are unfortunately seriously lacking. — jammycakes (t)(c) 09:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete - I hate to call a previously decided debate into question (starie decisis), however this case seems to be extraordinary. There is no real notability asserted, the article is unreferenced and seems to be unattributed original research.  Let's keep this one from becoming an WP:ILIKEIT discussion, or a forum to discuss the subject of the article.  /Blaxthos 09:46, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep - Please read the Previous nomination that resulted in Keep - "Quoting Policy" was not as important than as it apparently is now, so that is why there is none, but the noteability by Pinkville was still asserted correctly IMHO. I have traced down a google cache of a source, I will quote it here:
 * The rapidly increasing population notice that their planet will soon be too small. The Earth is dismantled to provide building material. This is taken away to create Globus Cassus, a new, much bigger habitat, thought out from scratch. With essays by Boris Groys, Claude Lichtenstein and Michael Stauffer. The Swiss contribution to the international Biennale of Architecture 2004 in Venice. Fosnez 13:09, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The reference that you give is an entry in a sales catalogue, which per WP:BOOKS is quite clearly trivial. Reference to policy has always been important: AfD discussions are not a vote but an attempt to determine to what extent an article's presence in Wikipedia conforms to policy. I have raised another AfD precisely because not a single argument in the previous AfD raised any objective evidence whatsoever to support the claims that Globus Cassus is notable in its own right -- i.e. the subject of non-trivial coverage in multiple reliable sources. It is most likely that this was an oversight or that nobody thought to address the issue at the time -- well, I am addressing it now; without such evidence, it can only be assumed to be non-notable, unreferenced, original research. — jammycakes (t)(c) 13:35, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I have to agree with jammycakes here -- the only notability you are asserting is from a sales catalogue -- hardly a reliable source (much less coverage in multiple secondary sources). As requested previously, can we keep this AFD policy-centric?  /Blaxthos 14:26, 30 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete per the concerns raised above. Eusebeus 16:05, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete in full agreement with nomination EyeSerene TALK 17:22, 30 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Keep The subject is notable for reasons that were articulated in the previous AfD discussion, but I'll elaborate here. First, yes, the subject is obscure, it doesn't generate Google hits in the same order of magnitude as Final Fantasy X, and while sources such as "a small number of fairly specialised news sites" may at first seem damning, many other articles in WP have few Google hits and only specialised sources. Most of my work on WP has involved obscure subjects (barely known 19th century photographers in Asia), but they are notable nonetheless (apparently, even FA-worthy). That Globus Cassus was the "core of the Swiss entry" at the 9th Architecture Biennale in Venice of 2004 is already a claim to notability, that the project has been published by a renowned - if somewhat obscure - publisher (Lars Müller) bolsters that claim, and that the project continues to develop through its website adds further to that claim. Again, comparing with articles on photographers (which represent a similar set of problems re: notability), there is much agreement (see this discussion, which follows from WP:N) that notability depends on a photographer's work having been exhibited in a prominent exhibition and/or having appeared in a serious publication. Extrapolating from those criteria, Globus Cassus fits the bill in both respects. Finally, I must take issue with the characterisation of the previous AfD discussion as "I like it" vs. "I don't like it". In fact, the discussion was much more a case of "I don't like it, so it must be deleted" vs. "what are its merits as a subject for a WP article?". I happen to hate the subject, but I believe it merits an article in WP as an example of an admittedly obscure but notable combination of artistic/architectural/science fiction speculation and scholarship. I do agree that references need to be added, and I'd like to point out that such references are more likely to come from the realms of printed architectural and design sources than anything readily Googlable or otherwise Internet-based. It's not a subject I'm greatly interested in, but if I have time I'll try to add some bibliographical references to critical reviews, etc. Pinkville 18:20, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * First: "obscure but notable" is an oxymoron.


 * Secondly: the Venice Biennale is the only serious claim that Globus Cassus has to notability, and by its very nature, it is transitory. WP:N requires substantial coverage by multiple sources that are independent of each other and the subject. Notability must also be enduring, which is why I raised concerns that the only Google hits to serious press articles (and these seem very thin on the ground before the search results descend into spammy gibberish) are from specialised publications at around the time of the Biennale.


 * I do not know much about the best designed books from around the world award, but it needs to be established that it was both notable and independent of the Biennale; even then, it is dubious whether this is sufficient to carry the day.


 * Thirdly, your statement about nothing googleable academically is very difficult to swallow: any non-trivial coverage from the academic community will show up in Google Scholar, as at least the abstracts for every published paper in the past ten years or more are available online. Google Scholar returns only one result.


 * Fourthly, while WP:BK does indicate that the publisher may be a factor in notability criteria for academic books, other factors must also be taken into account, such as how widely it is cited in the academic press. See point 3.


 * Finally, what goes on elsewhere on Wikipedia is irrelevant; WP:ATA notes that such arguments hold no water, and in fact I noted that one such argument on the previous AfD pointed to what is now a redlink, which would indicate that the page in question has since been deleted (probably speedily, given the juvenile nature of its title). — jammycakes (t)(c) 21:12, 30 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Obscure but notable is an oxymoron, but so is army intellegence. I don't really get what point you are trying to make here? Once notable == always notable. It does return results on Google Scholar, and Google Search, and it has been featured in a book award, and an architecture award. I think this more than suffices for notability? One final thing, in your last point you say that what goes on elsewhere on wikipedia is irrelevant, but then go on to reference another AfD, I'm confused? Fosnez 21:43, 30 August 2007 (UTC)


 * May I refer you to WP:N for my response to "Once notable == always notable": there is no doubt whatsoever that Globus Cassus falls flat on its face on this one. As to the awards, or anything that you consider may indicate enduring notability, please give full details of exactly which awards and how notable they were, backed up by reliable sources. — jammycakes (t)(c) 22:27, 30 August 2007 (UTC)


 * If you re-read the policy that you quoted, it actually states "Topics that did not meet the notability guidelines at one point in time may meet the notability guidelines as time passes" nowhere in that policy does it say that notability diminishes with time, which seems to be what you are implying. In fact "enduring" is not even mentioned on the page. Also, regarding sources: Sources != internet links. It has been established that this has featured in a major exhibition (via the source I provided, and others in this AfD) and is thus notable then, and is therefore notable now. - Fosnez 01:31, 31 August 2007 (UTC)


 * In turn.
 * 1. "Obscure but notable" is not at all an oxymoron, and I'm perplexed that an experienced WP editor should think it is. Pierre Rossier is exceedingly obscure - virtually nothing (not even his full name) was known about this 19th century photographer until 3 years ago - yet he is notable for his influence as an early teacher of photography in Japan and China. Treatises on impossible megaprojects are likely to be obscure by their very nature, but may yet have a notable influence - to those who know the field.
 * 2. The second serious claim to notability, which you dismiss, is the publication Globus Cassus by a prominent publishing house. Lars Müller is one of the finest publishers of serious works on architecture, art, design and related subjects, as prestigious as, say, Princeton University Press. I invite you to consult Lars Müller's website. I don't understand what you mean about the book being "independent of the Biennale", but think of it as a book parallel to the Globus Cassus exhibition entry. There's nothing that needs establishing there, it's a book, like Dhalgren is a book. As for the "transitory nature" of exhibitions... well that's a limited view. Exhibitions often receive scholarly attention many years or decades after they occured. The 9th Venice Biennale is no exception.
 * 3. When abstracts have been put online, they appear, yes. But Google doesn't measure everything that has been written or that is being written. And the three essay contributors to the book, Boris Groys, Claude Lichtenstein and Michael Stauffer, are each notable in their own right. I note that there is a Library of Congress Authority for Christian Waldvogel that mentions Globus Cassus, again indicating notability.
 * 4. As above.
 * 5. Other activity in WP is not irrelevant, it is what WP policy is based on and meant to guide. And it's particularly useful to compare with similar subjects in other parts of WP when related difficulties regarding notability arise - as with obscure subjects such as Pierre Rossier or this article. Pinkville 02:32, 31 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I could respond to you point by point but I won't other than to say that none of them satisfactorily address the issues I have raised. Instead, I will simply sum up what has been stated so far in favour of a keep:


 * 1. The Venice Biennale. This is a fairly good point but it is doubtful whether it is sufficient in and of itself to carry the day, particularly in the light of the fact that the subject has had so little coverage elsewhere.
 * 2. The identity of the publisher. This can be a deciding factor in determining the notability of books, but only when considered alongside other factors such as breadth and depth of citation.
 * 3. An award which appears to be given for typography and graphic design, not content, and (you may correct me if I am wrong) appears to be little known outside Germany.
 * 4. The Library of Congress. Unless I am mistaken, this is completely trivial: as a copyright library, the Library of Congress keeps a record of every book published in the United States and their respective authors.


 * Set aside these factors, which alone are borderline in terms of establishing notability, we must consider that there is so little coverage of the subject elsewhere that without them this article would be a candidate for category A7 speedy deletion. It may be that, as you maintain, there are offline sources that can be cited that bolster its case for notability. If this is the case, please prove it and cite them. — jammycakes (t)(c) 09:34, 31 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Keep Notability is not inherited, but editors should be aware that the Venice Biennale is the premier contemporary arts exhibition in the world, comparable in some ways to a contemporary arts Olympics. It is curated and by invitation. The Architecture Biennale apparently has more of a World's Fair approach and it is possible that this is just one of many things exhibited "at" the fair, but it is noted to be the official Swiss entry. To achieve that status it must have gone through a juried process of some kind. I personally believe this is sufficient notability to keep an article on a contemporary art project, because this is equivalent to athletes "competing at the highest level". Being a Venice selection is a serious honor and should not be dismissed lightly. --Dhartung | Talk 00:18, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That is true but WP:N requires coverage from multiple independent reliable sources over an extended period of time. Prestigious as the Biennale may be, there is almost nothing to speak of apart from it. — jammycakes (t)(c) 00:39, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete as I do not see any significant coverage from independent sources Corpx 00:23, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment. There is one other thing that may or may not be of relevance. User:Pinkville opined that the Globus Cassus website adds to the subject's notability. The GC website is actually one of the most heavily spammed wikis I have ever seen. At times, approximately one in three pages are totally obliterated by spam bots, and some spam remains for several months before being reverted. (Example) — jammycakes (t)(c) 11:47, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment - I would actually that is a very good reason to keep in on wikipedia, if the source website is being spammed as you say, then having it stored here is a good idea, it retains knowledge that might otherwise be lost. After all, that is what we are all about here. If your seemingly unquenchable requirement for sources is not satisfied by the end of the AfD (and IMHO I believe they have been) I suggest we break all the rules anyway. - Fosnez 12:33, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think we should leave it to everyone else to decide now. I've stated my case, you've stated yours, and everybody knows exactly what the score is. At least this time I can be more confident that the outcome will be based on Wikipedia policies and hard facts rather than WP:ILIKEIT or WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS type arguments. — jammycakes (t)(c) 13:21, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * We don't keep articles just because it might get spammed elsewhere (or lost). We have notability guidelines, as well as a big long list of what Wikipedia is not.  I don't find the "source might get spammed, so we should keep it here" argument at all convincing (or such a drastic case that we should resort to WP:IAR).  The topic has no enduring notability or worldwide significance.  /Blaxthos 18:41, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree that WP isn't a repository for texts that may vanish elsewhere. But you have seriously altered the WP definition of notability with the addition of the qualifiers "enduring" * and "worldwide significance". When did these criteria become become policy? And just a general reminder, notability is not the same thing as popularity or familiarity, it refers to something that is "worthy of note", which is why very obscure topics may be notable.
 * * WP:N says that "notability is not temporary", and Globus Cassus is not temporary, the book is still in print. Pinkville 20:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Please stop splitting hairs about the exact meaning of the policy, you know exactly what it means and exactly what the issue is. Specifically, that the third party coverage of Globus Cassus by independent, reliable sources is quite clearly insufficient to establish notability. If you want to convince anyone of your case, you must provide solid evidence to back it up as ultimately that is what will decide this matter. There are no sources to speak of available online, though you maintain that there are some available offline -- well, where are they? If it has permanent notability per WP:N, reliable sources will still be covering it on an ongoing basis since the Biennale. Where are the references and sources to back up your assertions? — jammycakes (t)(c) 23:58, 31 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Keep things just have to be notable of their sort, and for this the sources are fully sufficient to show notability in its field. Popularity is not notability, and unpopularity is not non-notability. Specialized material, even in the smallest specialty, can be notable, and a random look at WP will show this--access to such is the very purpose of a comprehensive encyclopedia. Deletion here is based on  ITDOESNTMATTERTOME.  DGG (talk) 05:47, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * No, it is based on the explicit and specific definition of notability in WP:N: non-trivial coverage in multiple published reliable sources, which, per WP:N, must extend over a sufficient period of time to demonstrate enduring notability. As for the specialised field business: this is an argument that has cropped up a couple of times but it does not seem to have been properly justified, that Globus Cassus is notable because it is significant in some particularly specialised field. Can somebody please enlighten us as to exactly what that field is supposed to be, and why in this case such a tiny and transitory amount of coverage should be considered sufficient? Deletion discussions need to be based on evidence, not broad sweeping generalisations and WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS type arguments. — jammycakes (t)(c) 06:56, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Comment. The "keep" votes have thus far failed to address the issue at stake in this deletion debate: the almost total lack of coverage of the subject in reliable, third party sources. None of them have provided any solid evidence or references to back up their assertions and some of them are falling back on WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. This discussion needs to either (a) cite additional references and sources or else (b) demonstrate non-trivial influence in an area where only a tiny number of sources can reasonably be expected, stating what that area is and why it is reasonable that third party references should be so thin on the ground. So far the only convincing "keep" argument has been from Dhartung, with some useful information about the Biennale, but even then the lack of coverage elsewhere leaves some questions unanswered: if what he is saying is correct, it would be roughly analogous to an Olympic swimmer winning a gold medal and getting little or no press coverage in her home country. — jammycakes (t)(c) 08:42, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Response to Comment - Just because something doesn't get much "press coverage" doesn't mean it is not notable - Prime Example. Now, please don't take this as an attack - you seem to understand the policies of wikipedia - you sure have quoted a lot of policy!, but I don't think you understand the spirit of the organization. I have already been flamed once for using this quote, but I think it applies here. Mr Wales once said that wikipedia was supposed to contain the "sum of all human knowledge", that would include this. We have established that this is a notable idea, repeatedly - heaven knowns there are less notable articles on wikipedia. (I won't link to them to "protect the innocent") but they, like this on, deserve to be here. The article is well written, is not advertisement and takes up a trivial amount of bandwidth / harddrive space. Live and let live. Fosnez 09:48, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but this just boils down to a combination of WP:ILIKEIT and WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. We don't have policies and guidelines (WP:RS and WP:N) so that we can have something to ignore... ;-)  Wikipedia is not a reward; things don't "deserve to be here".  The nebulous "spirit of the organization" argument is just an appeal to ignore the rules without a real explaination as to why.  This subject, as appealing as it may be to some, has no long term notability, which is examplified by the complete lack of reliable sources -- this pair of deficiencies go hand-in-hand almost always, and should be a clear cut case to delete, IMHO.  As a side note, I have no campaign or disdain for the subject of this article; I just hate to see the AFD process be overrun with !votes of keep with no clear rationale in policy.  /Blaxthos 12:12, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete No indication that there is significant coverage in multiple reliable secondary sources independent of the topic. Jay32183 01:01, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Merge with other articles about space habitats, Jeffrey.Kleykamp 03:09, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep or merge somewhere carefully. There are a few online hints that it has had additional coverage, but more importantly, the German Wikipedia entry tells us that the book won the "gold medal to the Leipziger book fair", and includes two quotes (presumably by notable people). John Vandenberg 06:19, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Finally we're getting somewhere. However, coverage is still very sparse and I still say it is insufficient to warrant an article of its own. Even if it is kept, the article will need to be rewritten as it does not make its significance clear and does not differentiate clearly between fact and fiction (when I first encountered the article I seriously thought it was an April Fool joke or a hoax or something). Furthermore, the links in the German Wikipedia article all point to the Globus Cassus & author's websites, not to secondary sources. — jammycakes (t)(c) 08:07, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The next step is to research the award and expand the article about the fair, in order to gauge the significance of the award. John Vandenberg 08:21, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.