Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gojko Mrnjavčević


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Mrnjavčević family. The rough consensus is not to keep the article but also not to delete, so I'll go with a redirect which allows furher merging. Mrnjavčević family sounds a reasonable target. Tone 12:08, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Gojko Mrnjavčević

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I came across this article when doing reasearch about a region in Montenegro. It made no sense, but I hadn't verified whether the listed bibliography confirmed the article. It doesn't.

The biography itself is a gross violation of its own bibliography. The folklore collection Project Rastko says ''Gojko. A fictitious character, brother of Vukašin and Uglješa of the Mrnjavčević family. and in the article this is used as He is mentioned in Serb epic poetry as Vojvoda Gojko''. It has spilled also in other articles in an attempt to give plausability to this character's existence. On Mrnjava: Bosković (2009), who is cited, writes Even though Pavel Jozef Safarik supported this assertion and the assumption that Mrnjava had a third son named Gojko, both Mrnjava and Gojko are unknown to the more reliable modern history and in the article this was used as Some historians do not acknowledge Gojko as being the third son, though Benedictine monk and historian Mavro Orbini registered Mrnjava as father of the three sons, supported by Pavel Jozef Šafárik.''. So, for ten years on wikipedia there's an article about a Serbian nobleman that never existed. It has all the paraphernalia of a biography: an infobox with a made-up birth date (probably by an editor), general information about the historical period he supposedly lived, and a lineage. If all of the extra stuff were removed from the article, it could be summed up as ''Gojko M. is fictional character in Serbian folklore. Modern historiography has rejected any notion that he existed.''.

Delete and merge any relevant information to Mrnjavčević family. Maleschreiber (talk) 14:19, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Delete essentially a hoax as described by the sources already in use.--Calthinus (talk) 14:48, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Specialized bibliography doesn't support the existence of this figure either, John A. Fine (1994) : Originally poor, Mrnjava and his sons Vukasin and Ugljesa - rose rapidly under Stefan Dusan. Possibly the family had supported his invasion of Bosnia/Hum in 1350..--Maleschreiber (talk) 15:06, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Serbia-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 15:35, 9 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep - More than 50 sources on GBS, on Serbian language only.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:34, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Link? --Calthinus (talk) 22:08, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Link.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:09, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
 * There are about 40 books listed in that link. About 30 mention Gojko M. So why is he is mentioned? In most of them, he's listed as a character of Serb epic poetry in a very brief manner. So, I ask: why does that make this article viable as a standalone? Why can't those 2-3 three lines I mentioned Gojko M. is fictional character in Serbian folklore. Modern historiography has rejected any notion that he existed.'' suffice for a small paragraph under Mrnjavčević family?--Maleschreiber (talk) 23:55, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment I don't have an opinion on this but I will note that being fictitious doesn't necessarily imply no article. We have articles on lots of fictitious characters. It comes down to whether the fictitious character is sufficiently notable and covered by enough reliable sources. Even an argument between experts over his existence adds to his notability in a small way. Zerotalk 02:54, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
 * In such a case, we would expect at least one of those thirty books to devote extensive space to him. Is this so?--Calthinus (talk) 03:53, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree with you and I searched for folk stories that have him as a central character and such, but he's just a name mentioned in passing in most. I think that 2-3 lines can be salvaged from this article and be used to expand a section on the stub-class Mrnjavčević family.--Maleschreiber (talk) 10:31, 10 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep. A notable character in multiple fictional works. I wonder ifthe nomination was based on the confusions between someone presented as being real, who was not actually real, and a character put in an historical setting with a plausible background for the purposes of fiction.  DGG ( talk ) 11:04, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 11:06, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 11:06, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 11:15, 12 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Weak keep or merge to The Mountain Wreath. He seems like a real historical character, possibly legendary, but with a bunch of mentions, through I don't see any in-depth coverage. This article needs cleanup, but probably not TNT. The lead is confusing, describing him as fictional. Ping me if there are any new arguments, but overall it seems like content to save, not blow up. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 11:36, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm open to discussion about whether this can become an article about a fictional character, but this was definitely not a real person. Gojko is, notably, a poetic invention, while Vukašin and Uglješa Mrnjavčević are historical figures.] from the bibliography of the article. Why not merge it to the already very short Mrnjavčević family? --Maleschreiber (talk) 12:54, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * He is also called fictional (well, imaginary...) in . But I think this is salvageable. A merge is an option, yes, but it could also be rewritten into an article about the poem he appears in; in general, works of fiction are more likely to be notable then characters and such that appear in them. I'll ping User:Toughpigs who is pretty good at rescuing such content too. If I were to vote for merge, I'd suggest the poem (The Mountain Wreath) instead of the family, through the family article should certainly mention him too. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 04:33, 13 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep (or merge) (but without the genealogy). Calling him Vojvoda does not mean that two people are conflated, as this is a title or office, but perhaps rename to Vojvoda Gojko.  His appearance in an epic poem, whether he is fictional or legendary to enough to justify the existence of an article (or redirect).  I express no view as to target, as this is beyond my knowledge.  Peterkingiron (talk) 17:03, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete - legendary character in obscure epic poems. I would not oppose a merger to an appropriate target. Bearian (talk) 00:16, 16 March 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.