Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gothic Ceremonies


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete as mostly nonsensical essay.  Sandstein  23:24, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Gothic Ceremonies

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Delete Essay that contains a hell of a lot of WP:OR Mayalld (talk) 12:49, 3 July 2008 (UTC) The article has alot of references in the literature it has mentioned, I think the article should just be formated abit better, alot of the material which is discussed in the article is common knowledge to alot of people in the world —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.163.136.135 (talk) 23:54, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete Confusingly written, definitely original research, if it's not a hoax.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 14:06, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

should the bolding of references under the "Highly Recognised Ceremonial books from the Gothic World" title be replaced with italics —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.163.136.135 (talk) 02:39, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The whole section should probably be deleted (not to mention the whole article). Are "Mein Kampf" (by Adolf Hitler) and "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" (by the Tsar's secret police) really Gothic ceremonial books?--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 04:59, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

The books mentioned above were written by notable peoples of Gothic ancestory in times of violent revolution. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.135.113.228 (talk) 07:43, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Note most of the literature influenced wicca, paganism & the new age movement as opposed to the dark side of gothic culture like the technocracy & the void engineers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.135.113.228 (talk) 08:35, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Where are your references that wicca etc are influenced by the Goths? And Hitler was a Goth? - where is your evidence that such people are descended from the Goths? (And sure, technically it's possible for anyone in Europe to be descended from a Goth, but that's no more relevant than being descended from any other European tribe - no one considers it part of their culture anymore, and it is only the sort of thing you could discover with DNA testing.) Mdwh (talk)

hitler was born in east germany near austria, he is definitely a goth, he venerated the swastika & other pagan symbols, this does not mean that anyone who venerates these symbols will be a warlord, most people venerate the symbols in a peaceful manner.


 * Delete To be honest it's confusing what this is about - the title is "Gothic Ceremonies", but there is no lead defining what it's about, instead going straight to something called the "Gothic World". I presume it's talking about Goths, which we already have an article for (and I've not heard referred to as the "Gothic World"?) But then it jumps to things such as books and New Age, that came long after the Goths disappeared. Seems a confusing mix of things that are better covered in existing articles. No references. No cats either - I was going to categorise, but I have no idea what to put it in... Mdwh (talk) 09:46, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

there is no existing articles which point reference to gothic ceremonies or lists the books that will instruct someone how to partake in these ceremonies. apart from the aurom solis article.

the goths never disappeared their are people today who call themselves goths, the books listed describe gothic ceremonies as they are suppose to be celebrated, you have to read one of the books to understand what the Ogdoadic tradition is about, the books listed span at least 2000 to 3000 years, maybe 10 000 years according to the red book of westmarch. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.135.113.228 (talk) 10:00, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * "their are people today who call themselves goths" - who? (I presume you are not suggesting that goths are descended from Goths...) Mdwh (talk) 10:04, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

the books you mentioned are not to be revealed to the general public most are stored in libaries around the world it is the hermetic tradition after all —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.163.137.77 (talk) 10:28, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

the public have a right to know, they should know what these books are called so they can gain access to them & read them for themselves, I know its the hermetic tradition to keep the books hidden from public view & this has been the policy for the past 2000 years or 10000 years as suggested in the article, but times have changed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.163.137.77 (talk) 10:40, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete 58.163.137.77 seems to be saying that it is not possible to comply with WP:VERIFY in this case. The collocation is pretty much unknown to Google apart from wedding ceremonies tailored to Goth subculture. William Avery (talk) 13:02, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete Please note a very large chunk of Gothic_Ceremonies seems to be re-formatted Copy-vio of this -Hunting dog (talk) 13:05, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I removed the article seeing you all feel it is not suitable for wikipedia -> if you change your mind email me at mantra@spraci.zzn.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bindigoat (talk • contribs) 13:48, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Reverted. The template is explicit that the article must not be blanked during an AfD Mayalld (talk) 14:07, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * 20-Mule-Team Delete:" The "Technocracy" and the "Void Engineers?"  I'm more comfortable when Wikipedia articles purporting to be real world fact don't take their sourcing from White Wolf roleplaying games, and that's about all the commentary this clear WP:BULLSHIT violation warrants.  I wouldn't call it WP:NOR so much as something made up for last weekend's gaming session.    RGTraynor  16:41, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment - It struck me that way too - couldn't quite pin it down but the upper level of the site the Copy-vio is from is related to that game also see and various sections read a lot more like gaming guides than real world articles. -Hunting dog (talk) 20:05, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete - This article is not helpful to a reader looking for information, be the inquiry about modern goths, ancient Goths, or white wolf roleplaying games. If I thought it could be re-written I would try it myself but there are just too many claims that need sources and many that I suspect I would struggle to find a credible source for. So I say delete. TheSlothBear (talk) 03:15, 5 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete, it looks more of an essay then an encyclopedia article.  Marlith  (Talk)   04:25, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I have spend 20 years research in writing this article —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bindigoat (talk • contribs) 04:34, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment: You'll forgive our doubts, given (a) the vast number of elements that are directly taken from the 1995 Mage: The Ascension roleplaying game (such as the Technocracy, Void Engineers, the Euthanatos, the Order of Hermes and the Celestial Chorus) and (b) that most of the article is just a list of publically known (or rumored) books.   RGTraynor  18:13, 5 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Religion-related deletion discussions.   --  Fabrictramp  |  talk to me  20:44, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete - Salvagable content can be moved into the appropriate articles, list of books can easily be done without. John Carter (talk) 20:50, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete - this is an insult to patent nonsense. Al Azif is a fictional author of the fictional Necronomicon (which is described, though the title is mysteriously not mentioned as it might be too much of a giveaway).  This is a complete work of fiction being passed off as something researched.  Tie a piece of lead to it and kick it off the deck! LonelyBeacon (talk) 06:43, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Right now the article seems to be entirely original research. There's no evidence anyone but an editor has a definition of "gothic" divided into these three groups or connects this particular list of books to the concept. The recognizable books don't seem to be sources for the concept. They seem to be books an editor believes are related. Comments such as "The Technocrats & the Void Engineers are often accused of corrupting the work of the Mages by taking away peoples telepathic skills, community spirit, craft skills & material creation abilities," presented as fact, suggest an essay or political manifesto on an editor's part.  --Shirahadasha (talk) 08:24, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Suggest the author consider taking a break from Wikipedia editing. Although it's true anyone can edit anything, even a mage's ability to shape reality to ones will in the Wikipedia world can be more limited than it might first appear, and this can be something of a bummer, metaphysically speaking. How about another game of Mage: The Ascension? Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 08:30, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Strong delete With statements like "The Lord of the Rings is said to be a 10 000 year old history of Gothic Culture by many people." its obvious this is (at best) a non-notable fringe theory, if not an outright hoax. Edward321 (talk) 15:36, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.